Is the "Higher Understanding" Acceptable?
From an article in "First Things"
Not a few ministers and theologians were troubled by this evidence that more than half of American evangelicals are convinced Arian heretics.
The problem is endemic to American Christianity more broadly:
The survey found that similar percentages of Catholics and mainline Protestants also called Jesus a created being. According to some commentators, this suggests that sincere believers with little taste for theology may have been confused by such a metaphysically loaded question. Labeling them “Arians,” they argue, misconstrues the situation and pours contempt on ordinary brothers and sisters. Their confusion, we are told, is in itself inconsequential and entirely predictable.
We have every reason to believe God desires loving obedience far more than having one’s doctrinal ducks in a row. Still, heresy is rarely, if ever, harmless. At best, calling Jesus a created being alters the way we articulate the gospel, makes nonsense of the creeds, guts orthodox soteriologies, and therefore creates obstacles in our witness. At worst, it draws people toward sin and unbelief. Just as tremors on the ocean floor create tsunamis that become more destructive the farther they travel from their source, so too errant beliefs can cause much damage far beyond their specific doctrinal origins.
(https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2022/11/how-to-stay-orthodox)
Well, to be fair, the Higher Understanding was always a pagan reconceptualization of Christianity. It was more a odd concoction of Mormonism and VR than anything else.
ReplyDeleteBut really. The West is dying. Does it surprise you that still ng organisms decay?
Faith in the West may be dying as a foundation of our culture, but this doesn't prevent Christians presenting and preserving the orthodox Gospel within their particular churches. This is down to a failure in teaching!
DeleteIt is indeed. BUT how important is it? Isn't Christianity about how you live your faith?
DeleteYes. Christians have witnessed decay before, the early church fought against many bad ideas that would have undermined core Christian ideas. It's no excuse to throw up one's hands.
Delete@Parky, what faith, though? Social Justice style?
DeleteP.s. I thought I recognized you from Cranmer but now I'm not so sure! Were you also there?
To ParkinsonsCM
DeleteIsn't it both?
The divinity of Christ is an essential teaching of the Christian faith. Indeed, any community of faith that denies Christ’s deity ceases to be Christian.
Some people think of Jesus as a remarkable man, basically in the same category as Buddha, Moses, Confucius, and Gandhi. A good man, a holy man, but just a man.
As C.S. Lewis said:
“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice.”
Lewis outlines three possibilities. Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. He could not have been simply a good person, a saintly sage.
[sigh] "dying organisms". I must be more careful with editing now.
ReplyDeleteYou can always copy the post, delete it, amend and repost it.
DeleteYou can, but it is a bit of a pain in the arse!!!!!!😂
DeleteYes, Jack noticed you've experienced this!
DeleteIs anyone surprised? Systematic theology doesn't play a large part of preaching these days. It's more practical theology, as in many ways it should be. Jesus's preaching was full of practical theology and light on systematic.
ReplyDeleteI honestly can't remember the last time there was any in depth systematic theology preached in any of the churches I've attended.
I was trying to explain the five Solas to a group of Christian men, my age or older and none of them had heard of them.
I was more than a little surprised.
Interestingly, one of them is uncomfortable with his current church, due to the patriarchy and generally literal understanding of the Bible. So he is uncomfortable for example, with the churches attitude to same sex marriage. Now the really bizarre part is his solution, and that is to become an anabaptist and possibly the Amish part of it.
He may be in for a shock!
It's not really "systematic theology" to believe Jesus Christ in God incarnate. It's fundamental to our Christian creed. We may not fully understand this - it is a Divine mystery - but it's foundational to the Gospel.
DeleteBut understanding the Jesus is God incarnate is an example of a wider problem, yes we need to understand that Jesus is God incarnate , but it's only part of a whole
DeleteHave I found the key to the riddle? https://images.app.goo.gl/uQxxWqcAfQBHMxH38
ReplyDeletePossibly!
DeleteArthur Edward Waite saw himself as a mystic, was a Freemason and into the occult and esoteric matters.
Maybe our mutual friend will drop by and give us an aye or a nay!
DeleteGadjo Dilo I was (drum roll) Prof Generaliter, unfortunately I had this Google account which this blog picked up the details from automatically. I run my own blog with is this name, for reasons that should be obvious. And for those reasons I can't change my name. I would like to use my prof name here, but can't see how.
ReplyDeleteCreate another gmail account, sign in, open blogger in another window (square symbol with 9 dots), skip create blog, name yourself "Prof Generaliter" and away you go. You'll then have two accounts you can use and switch between.
DeleteOk, Prof, I gotcha now. (I'm not sure about the 'obvious reasons' - if the name describes a condition that you have, I'm sorry to hear it.)
DeleteThere are worse things in this world to get.
DeleteMy step-father had it for a long time, a wide range of pills kept him going.
DeleteIt's the fastest growing neurological condition in the world today.
DeleteStill pisses me off.
Well I'm not very good at this sort of thing, but I eventually got there!
ReplyDeleteWelcome!
DeleteHi Happy Jack, I understand from your update that you can post under Anonymous, i.e., a Google account is not required after all. That is great news! Similarly, if posters want to retain their original ID, they can choose Name/URL instead of Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteYou may want to “advertise” this on retalk Cranmer, too!
Come to think of it, I can delete my Google account again …
Yes, I discovered this facility when I was exploring options. The problem is it can be abused.
Delete@Happy Jack, Oh, I see what you mean, OK, I will hang onto the Google account
DeleteThis review in First Things raises all kinds of questions. One of them, though of course only a secondary one, is this.
ReplyDeleteAlthough First Things is a Catholic publication, this is a review of a book by an Evangelical author, published by IVP, which I believe is itself an Evangelical publisher, and not only that but the reviewer, too, is an Evangelical. I have only a very vague idea of the meaning of the term “Evangelical” in the U.S. context. What is it, exactly, that divides those Protestants labeled as “Evangelicals” from those other Protestants who are not called that? Any explanation would be much appreciated.
'First Things' isn't exclusively Catholic and publishes articles from across denominations. The term "evangelical" really has no meaning!
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
The labels have tended to deteriorate. 'Evangelicals' used to be what I would call 'reformed' or 'folloiwng the Five Solas' or 'following the classical reformed confessions of faith, Westminster Confession of Faith' or in my case following the Book of Common Prayer (+ 39 Articles). I would not call myself evangelical anymore, because I don't know what it represents (possibly hand waving in the sky!?).
DeleteIncidentally, Happy Jack, we have to continue with these post-Cranmer websites. My blog has had over 4000 'views' and I continue to post something daily to keep ithe Cranmer Symposium turning over. The latest is on "Integrity is missing"
https://wingsofthewind.retalk.com/integrity-is-missing
This is to reflect on Advent, the first two weeks of which are about the Second Coming and final reckoning which many are heading for in a less than spiritually healthy condition.
I see that 'Mrs Proudie' is commenting on articles on vaccine damage on Conservative Woman blaming Hancock - as I have done too (but in my case blaming medics). I have diagnosed the medical condition sisabled writer has, I think. A label in that case is helpful!
Two Feet
Cranmer was a rare site in that it attracted contributions from the spectrum of Christian beliefs and, apart from the occasional scuffle, was a good humoured community. Friendships were established there over the course of many years.
Delete@Annis, I always thought that 'evangelical' meant 'bringing good news (which I think is what the original Greek meant), and would apply to any denomination that bothered to evangelise. But apparently now the word has 'baggage'!
DeleteHello Jack et al. Honestly, one leaves you all alone for a few weeks and you replace half the government, crash the economy and HG nukes his blog. I hope you're all well.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, clicking through to the survey this article is based on, it seems to me that the question isn't a particularly good one. It's not hard to imagine someone who holds (small o) orthodox views of Christ's nature, but isn't very well versed in theological jargon, agreeing with the statement without having the slightest Arian leaning. Secondly, it's a very small sample size (~3,000 from an online panel), so one wonders how much can usefully be read into it. Thirdly, the respondents were able to answer on a scale of strongly agree, agree, not sure, disagree, strongly disagree. But this is a binary question; Jesus cannot be a bit the first of God's creations, or a bit not.
More interesting is Statement 7 (above caveats still applying), where the survey makers state that 43% of American evangelicals agreed with the statement 'Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God'. I find this hard to believe and wonder what stripe of 'evangelicals' responded to this.
Interestingly, the summary page states that 'Evangelicals were defined by LifeWay Research as people who strongly agreed with the following four statements:
- The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe.
- It is very important for me personally to encourage non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior.
- Jesus Christ’s death on the cross is the only sacrifice that could remove the penalty of my sin.
- Only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God’s free gift of eternal salvation.'
Note that there is no requirement to actually affirm the core tenet of Christianity - i.e., that Jesus is the Son of God - in order to be classified as an evangelical Christian for the purposes of this research! A Jehovah's Witness could easily answer all those points in the affirmative.
Wonderful to see you here!
DeleteJack posted the link on a couple of websites on Disqus hoping you'd see it.
As ever, your comments go to the heart of the matter.
@Prof Generaliter
DeleteI think the issue lies with the idea of self-identification in general, which is a thoroughly modern concept. The Lord is clear that judgement about who is and who isn't a Christian is reserved to God alone; it is not for the 'believer' to decide, merely to hope on God's mercy. Therein lies the sin of presumption, of those who stridently inform the rest of us that they number among the 'elect', yet many who cry out 'Lord, Lord,' will find that Christ denies all knowledge of them. Ignoring this in favour of the supremacy of the individual has led to a whole pick 'n' mess confusion of religion, where one can decide that one is a Christian because some of Jesus' social teachings appeal, without needing to bother with all the unpleasant or demanding parts of his example, or the pesky 'picking up one's own cross' stuff.
Part of the role of the Church is to point people in the direction of right belief. We ask people to assent to the historical Creeds for confirmation etc.: one shouldn't be able to become a regular member of the Church and not know that Church, at least, views Christ as God. One might not understand how or why that is true, or might struggle with it, and some ultimately won't believe it yet remain members for other reasons, but it's inconceivable that almost half of the Christians surveyed in the linked article strongly disagree with that statement if they are Christians in any traditional sense (I think that the post-Enlightenment churches have too long relied on salvation via the intellectual crutch of 'believing in', rather than 'being in', Christ, but that's another argument). I find it strange that a survey that claims to 'take the theological temperature' of American Christianity is so lax in defining Christianity's central claim - it's like surveying people who self-identify as 'drivers' without stipulating that they must hold a driving licence, then reporting that 60% of drivers don't know how to drive. It makes a good headline, but I don't think it's useful data.
@Happy Jack
Thank you, I'm glad to see a remnant of the community survives - fortunately I saw your post in my email notifications, otherwise I wouldn't have found you. My Disqus account is completely empty - every single comment and reply has disappeared! Such is life, I suppose, all is in flux; things are either coming into existence or going out of it.
Yes that's true. Nice to hear you're back, hope you enjoyed your time of meditation.
Delete@ 雲水
DeleteIf you click on Jack's Disqus account (from your "Following" list) you'll find Happy Jack's recent comments. On his "Following" list you'll see some familiar bloggers.
I contacted Disqus and there's no way to recover past comments. Adrian Hilton elected to delete all comments when he closed his site.
Glad you found this site - Jack has missed your comments. Hope your stay in Japan was spiritually refreshing.
If ever you want to post an article here, send it through the contact form in an email. Perhaps thoughts on the differences between the Orthodox Church's approach to Advent and the Western churches?
Ah, so there's a workaround. I suppose I'm going to have to hold my nose and open a Google account now!
DeleteHave we any idea why Dr. Hilton decided to erase the blog?
My time in Japan was wonderful, thank you. In all honesty, I'd still be there had I not foolishly committed myself to playing the piano at some carol services for a certain musically deprived parish and a charity 'winter's jazz' evening. Nothing gets across the message of Christmas more than improvising progressions on 'Silent Night'!
Thank you, I shall have a think on it. We started Advent on the 15th, so I'm maybe a little late with that one.
You're a lady of many talents - and a kind heart!
DeleteYou can access your existing Disqus account through any that uses that format. Find a site, sign in, go to comments and click your icon. You won't gain access to Google blogger sites this way though.
You can open a Google email account with any name and access it in a separate window. Happy Jack has a couple! You'll need one to use the 'Contact Form'.
Once you have a Google account with email, you'll see a square icon with 9 dots. Click on this, skip "creating a blog" and give yourself a name for blogging. Then you should be up and running.
There's speculation about the reasons behind the closure of Cranmer. Some of this is on the "Requiescat In Pace: Cranmer" post. No one knows. He intimated four years ago he was going to close down. Some think it was legal problems over Christ Church.
Well, I don't know about that!
DeleteI now have an account! For some reason, Google seems to treat its sign in page and the blogger page as separate sites, so it wouldn't allow me to stay signed in unless I turned of my browser's facility to prevent cross-site cookie tracking.
I do wonder if there was some litigious shenanigans at foot, it seems the shut down was abrupt and the parting message somewhat pointed. It's a shame all the comments went with it.
Oh, and meant to add, the term "evangelical" as an indicator of one's beliefs, has no substantial meaning today.
ReplyDeleteChrist, according to the Witnesses, was Jehovah’s “first creation.” He is not equal with the Father. Christ was an angel who gave up his spirit-being and was born of Mary as a wholly human being. The Witnesses teach that Jehovah created a spirit-son, Christ Jesus, who, before becoming man, was known as Michael the Archangel. This spirit-son, was not God but His a favourite angel took on human flesh as a perfect man.
Most odd - and close to the Inspector's delusions!
Comments seem to bounce around here!😖
Delete@Prof Generaliter
DeleteThey do! One has to reply to the original comment and it's a good idea to indicate who one is reply to. Disqus format is far better but beyond Jack's skills.
HJ, Isn't that true for most Christian self identification nowadays?
DeleteIronically, the only self identifier with substantial indicator of the individuals beliefs, is those who identify as liberal!!
As a well-loved carol Adeste Fideles puts it: GENITUM NON FACTUM.
ReplyDeleteNeanderthal Èireannach
Dia dhuit, Neanderthal.
DeleteIndeed: "Very God, begotten, not created."