Priests and Politics - The Fine Line

“Whenever the church, in order to defend a principle, didn’t do it pastorally, it has taken political sides, If a pastor leaves the pastorality of the church, he immediately becomes a politician.” (Pope Francis, 2021)



Father Frank Pavone has been removed from the priesthood.

"This action was taken after Father Pavone was found guilty in canonical proceedings of blasphemous communications on social media, and of persistent disobedience of the lawful instructions of his diocesan bishop,"  (Archbishop Christophe Pierre, Apostolic Nuncio to the United States)

There's a great deal of "noise" surrounding this and controversy aplenty

"The blasphemy is that this holy priest is cancelled while an evil president promotes the denial of truth & the murder of the unborn at every turn. Vatican officials promote immorality & denial of the deposit of faith & priests promote gender confusion devastating lives…evil." (Bishop Joseph Strickland) 

Until more is known - if it ever is - this is the position Happy Jack finds himself in agreement with:

In the Vatican’s announcement of Father Frank Pavone’s laicization it was notable that they referred to him as “Mr Pavone”. 

For most of us (and apparently for Father Pavone too) the news of his being ejected from the clerical state came as a surprise. I have not followed Fr Pavone’s mission very closely over the years. While I admired his strong pro-life campaign, I shuddered at his open support for Donald Trump and was suspicious of his being somewhat of a freelance celebrity priest. We saw what happened with Father Corapi who also was allowed a free ranging ministry that too often was focussed on the promotion of Father Corapi and his bank account. This is not to say Father Pavone was another Corapi–only to say that when a priest is cut off from a local pastoral ministry in union with his bishop or religious community we should not be surprised when it ends in tears.

The psychological dynamics of charismatic religious leaders and their followers is an interesting study in dysfunction and human weakness. Typically the most wonderful and charismatic religious leaders have a strong personal identity combined with a streak of egoism. This is what makes them strong, outspoken leaders. This is also what makes them very attractive to a certain personality type who needs a strong, dynamic and outspoken leader. An unhealthy symbiotic relationship develops. The strong religious leader draws people who tend to be dependent. They, in turn, love him too much. They can become attached not only to his message, but to him as a person. They give him their attention. They give him their time. They give him their money, and all this feeds his egoism and makes him even stronger and more outspoken and this makes his followers adore him even more.

Please understand, I don’t know that much about Fr Pavone, and I’m not necessarily saying this is what developed in his ministry. I am simply commenting in general terms about the dynamics I have seen in religious organizations time and time again–and it doesn’t matter whether they are Protestant or Catholic, conservative or liberal. It happens everywhere.

Then when the ecclesiastical authorities attempt to rein in the freelance cleric he often pushes back, and he does so with the full support of his adoring fan club. Before long he becomes a martyr and the evil church authorities are to blame for his downfall.

This being said, it does seem peculiar to me that Fr Pavone–an outspoken pro-life priest–has been disciplined in this way while other liberal priests who flaunt the church’s teachings on morality and are clearly heterodox in their theology are celebrated and promoted. As with the pope’s Moto proprio Traditiones Custodes about the Traditional Latin Mass, it seems to me to be a sledgehammer to crack a peanut.

But making a judgement on it is above my pay grade. I hope the specifics of Fr Pavone’s offenses will eventually be made public. Much is said these days about transparency. We need it in this case if, for no other reason, than to help Fr Frank’s brother priests know where the line is and how far they can speak out before they are thrown under the bus by the powers that be.

I personally take his case as a reminder that my most important work is not the writing, blogging, speaking and my wider public ministry–and it is certainly not any sense of “celebrity” status this might bring me. The public ministry I consider part of my gifts and calling. The “celebrity” status is stupid and a shallow illusion. My most important work is as a parish priest, a husband and a father. What is local is real and what is real is eternal.

For  those interested, here's an overview of Father Pavone's history 

Update One:

In addition to his 2016 outrage, when he obtained an aborted foetus, laid this naked and uncleaned dead child upon an altar and posted a live video of this 'event' on Facebook, here are a sample of Tweets made during the 2020 American election:






In September 2020, the Diocese of Amarillo posted a brief statement on Father Frank Pavone. You can verify this here:

September 16, 2020

Statement: Diocese of Amarillo in regard to Father Frank Pavone. 

Recently Father Frank Pavone has posted a variety of messages and statements in regard to the General Elections in November, 2020. These postings on Social Media as videos concern the serious sinfulness of voting for candidates of a particular political party (with refusal of absolution if confessed) and the use of scandalous words not becoming of a Catholic priest. These postings are not consistent with Catholic Church Teachings. Neither the Catholic Church nor the Diocese of Amarillo condone any of these messages. Please disregard them and pray for Father Pavone.


Update Two:


Catholic Culture - not known for "progressive" views has a series of articles on Fr. Pavone dating back many years, including his suspension from the priesthood in 2011. Just use their search facility. They are worth a read if one wants to understand the full background to this affair. 

Here are some extracts from their most recent commentary:

Yes, there are other priests—many others, really—whose conduct has been far more egregious, whose public statements have been far more injurious to the faith. Yes, it is painful to see a leading figure in the American pro-life movement disciplined, while others who undermine Church moral teaching are showered with Vatican honors. Yes, many thousands of loyal Catholics have lost confidence in their bishops, and the see a blatant double standard in the handling of disciplinary cases.

Nevertheless the laicization of Frank Pavone is not an injustice. In fact it should not be a surprise ...

His bishop had warned him, long ago, about the exactly that possibility. After nearly fifteen years of fighting against episcopal authority—years in which he refused to accept his bishop’s directives—Pavone could not have been surprised by this weekend's news. 

If it is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) that Pavone first heard the news from a CNA reporter a few days ago—although the Vatican order for his laicization was issued on November 9—that can only be because he had broken off communications with his bishop ... 

Father Pavone was certainly not the first priest to fall into an adversarial relationship with his diocesan bishop. But other unhappy clerics recognize that on the day of their ordination to the priesthood, when they promised obedience to the ordaining bishop and his successors, they gave away all the high cards in their hand. In a battle with his bishop, the diocesan priest inevitably loses.

And frankly, despite all the problems that are so sadly evident in the Catholic hierarchy today, that is as it should be. A Catholic priest must be subject to some hierarchical control; otherwise he is a loose cannon: a minister who represents the Church but does not accept the Church’s authority.

In defending himself against his bishop, Pavone has consistently taken the line that he has been persecuted for his pro-life advocacy. “They just don’t like the work I’m doing for these babies,” he told CNA. That argument is disingenuous at best. Many other priests have been outspoken in their defense of the unborn, without causing any such conflicts with their superiors. His conflicts with his bishops—first with Cardinal Edward Egan in New York, then with Bishops John Yanta and Patrick Zurek in Amarillo, Texas—have revolved around his role in the secular corporation that he founded: Priests for Life ...

In announcing Pavone’s laicization to the American bishops, Archbishop Pierre said that the priest was disciplined for his “blasphemous communications on social media” as well as his “persistent disobedience.” The charge of disobedience is easy to understand; Pavone had insisted that he could not accept Bishop Zurek’s order to work in the Amarillo diocese. He explained that the late Cardinal John O’Connor, who ordained him, had approved his work with PFL. But it seems highly unlikely that Cardinal O’Connor gave him carte blanche to define his own priestly mission. And in any case, at ordination a priest promised obedience to his bishop and that bishop’s successors. When Cardinal Egan sought to put some restraints on his PFL involvement, Father Pavone arranged to transfer to the Amarillo diocese. But the problems with obedience followed him to Texas.

But what about those “blasphemous communications”? The apostolic nuncio did not explain the charge, but Father Pavone had often pushed the boundaries of taste in his condemnations of the abortion industry and its supporters. During the 2020 presidential campaign he wrote on Twitter about “supporters of this goddam loser Biden and his morally corrupt, America-hating, God-hating Democratic party.” Can we agree that sort of language is inappropriate for a man of the cloth?

Pavone’s heavy involvement in partisan politics was a concern, certainly. (He made few friends among the American bishops when he took a high-profile stand in support of Donald Trump’s campaign.) But his willingness to use religious occasions for political purposes—even for purposes as worthy as the pro-life movement—also made bishops uneasy. Their concern reached new heights in 2016, when he put the body of an aborted fetus on an altar, and posted a video of it on social media. Critics saw this action as a desecration of both the altar and the unborn child’s remains.

(Pavone has said that the fetal remains were placed not on an altar, but on a table, which he sometimes used as an altar. The distinction is obscure. What do you call a table on which a priest sometimes celebrates Mass? An altar.)


Final Update: 

This is an informative and balanced account with links to helpful articles 

Comments

  1. Jack may be surprised to hear that I do not automatically rush to Fr Pavone's defence. It troubles me greatly that he once placed the destroyed remains of an aborted child on his altar. There's a line, and -- on that occasion, at least -- I think he crossed it. That said, several things about this case are disturbing to me. One is that the Vatican simply expects the faithful to accept that Fr Pavone made "blasphemous" communications without citing what those communications were. By this point, you'd think they'd know that, as far as most committed Catholics are concerned, the Vatican's word in a box is worth the box. More troubling is the absolute free pass the Jesuits are getting for their ongoing scandal (Marko Rupnik, James Martin etc), and by "scandal", I'm using the strict theological definition of leading people into error. At this point, they are to Catholicism what the old Militant Tendency was to the Labour Party in the 1980s. Essentially, the Jesuits are a separate church, parasitic upon the body of Catholicism, and they absolutely get away with it every single time. Now, I wonder why that is?

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    1. These examples of "blasphemy" are arguable at the least. If this is what he was kicked out for them it's impossible to believe the Church authorities were acting in good faith, and certainly not considering the alacrity with which Pope Francis lifted the excommunication of Marko Rupnik. If they were not prepared to laicise him over the incident with the foetus, I find it impossible to believe they care about the tweets.

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    2. @ Bell
      There's likely to be more to this. The man was out of order and presents as an insensitive bully.

      You'll have read Church Militant. There we have the comments of a Fr. Stephen Imbarrato, a former member of 'Priests for Life' who has known Fr. Pavone for 22 years. You can watch his take on this here

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    3. @Bell: He had 9 nuns, that fr. Rupnik, apparently, and he gets quickly pardoned. Meanwhile Pavone repented, including in the official RC way, of the words he wrote about that nice Mr Biden.
      Btw, I heard that the bodies of the murdered unborn may be considered martyrs and so an altar might not be wholly inappropriate - any thoughts?

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    4. @ Gagjo
      The Rupnik affair and the way it has/is being handled, is a scandal and the Vatican needs to get its act in order about this. Yet another "spiritual celebrity" is revealed to be an abuser. This victims account is shocking.

      The issue with Fr. Pavone is somewhat different and it isn't comparable. Really, it's more about his persistent disobedience to his bishop and concerns about his activities in connection with a series of activities concerning 'Priests for Life' - financial as well as scandalous social media activity.

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    5. He didn't just have nine nuns, he absolved one of them in confession, which is an outrageous act drawing an automatic excommunication, one which Francis lifted LITERALLY within hours of it having been handed down. One of the nuns he abused attempted suicide, to boot. Yet this thing is then appointed to TWO curial bodies and has been allowed to lead retreats and Lenten meditations. As for the unborn victims, as angry as I am about Fr Pavone's treatment when set against the Jesuits' free gallop straight through the magisterium of the Catholic Church, I still think that was a bridge too far. All Catholic altars contain relics of saints, but not all are martyrs. It's a technical argument anyway to claim the bodies of aborted children are martyrs, and if you're going to argue technicalities, you're going to be arguing about the strict definition of martyrdom as opposed to just being a victim. If you were, for example, to get killed by a mugger, would you be a martyr or just a victim?

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    6. @ Bell
      Jack would be happy to post an article by you on Marko Rupnik. Just send it via his contact form using a Google email account.

      Here's a helpful background piece outlining the processes.

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    7. @Bell
      I honestly don't know about the RC church's official stances on these issues, so thank you for your input here.

      Personally, I'd rather that people see what an abortion actually means than not, and if Pavone is not allowed to be an in-your-face campaigner against it within the RC church then maybe he would do better outside it.

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    8. @ Gadjo
      And that's the choice he's made! He's still a member of the Cathlic Church but no longer a priest and subject to obedience to his bishop. It's a choice he was first asked to make in 2011.

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    9. @ Gadjo

      I heard that the bodies of the murdered unborn may be considered martyrs and so an altar might not be wholly inappropriate.

      The only things that should be placed upon the altar are things that are either consecrated or to be venerated. Even if one considers aborted children as martyrs (which I think is incorrect), the foetus was placed on the altar as a political prop, not a relic to be venerated.

      According to this article, the baby was obtained from a Protestant pastor who had obtained it from a pathologist at an abortion clinic, and had been entrusted to him for burial. Instead of burying the baby after the service, it was held onto and used for a political stunt and, by the account given, had not been laid to rest afterwards. This is vile behaviour if true.

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    10. If this Catholic publication is correct "The priest did say that, if he could do it over, he would not have displayed the body on the altar, but on a table. While he said Mass at the chapel, he said it had not been formally dedicated by a bishop." Catholics will have to work that out for themselves, but it sounds to me that he knew he'd crossed a big line.

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    11. Frankly, it wouldn't make a difference if he used and altar or a kitchen table, that isn't the main issue. Desecrating the altar is one thing, desecrating the (seemingly dishonestly acquired) remains of a dead baby is another, which should be obvious enough to anyone of any faith.

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    12. 雲水
      You contradict yourself:
      "The only things that should be placed upon the altar are things that are either consecrated or to be venerated"
      And:
      "it wouldn't make a difference if he used and altar or a kitchen table"

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    13. No, I'm talking about two different things.

      1. He desecrated the altar.

      2. He desecrated the remains of the child. This is offensive on its own whether he used an altar or not.

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  2. I agree with the underlying principles here: a priest is a priest, not a politician, social media influencer or celebrity. But isn't it interesting who gets censured and who doesn't.

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    1. @ Lain
      A priest blaspheming (G*damn) on social media, committing sacrilege with a dead child, and publicly stating you'll without confessional absolution from Democrat voters, is, Jack believes, a step too far for any priest!

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    2. Absolutely, and I've consistently said for a long time that clerics shouldn't be on Twitter or become media personalities. Gathering a following stokes pride, which is spiritual death, and the instantaneous nature of Twitter in particular encourages rashness and vainglory; 'Death and life are in the power of the tongue'.

      However, it's also blasphemous and sacrilegious to promote behaviour that leads to one of the peccata clamantia and imply that God approves thereof. Either all blaspheming priests deserve censure, or none of them do.

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    3. @ Lain
      Personally, Jack would ban all individual clerics from Twitter and restrict their use of social media. The internet is fuelled by dissatisfaction and dissension.

      If Pope Francis and some of his bishops are bad servants of the Gospel, it's best to encourage people in the faith and to continue putting hope in Jesus and the Church. Bad popes and bishops they come and they go,

      Pope Francis released the 'genie' when he initiated “synodality”. German Catholicism in particular and various individual priests/bishops, are in a de facto schism, if not outright apostasy. At some point this will have to be addressed.

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    4. Agreed, the same goes for clerics with regular TV slots. 'I'm sorry, I can't come and anoint your dying mother now, I have a panel show to appear on.'

      Personally, if I were his bishop, I would have removed this priest from public ministry after the stunt with the foetus in 2016.

      I don't think any of those issues will be resolved under this pontificate.

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  3. Can it be true that nobody told him? Not even an email from a bishop’s secretary, attaching a copy of the Vatican notification? Surely that can’t be the right way to handle a case of this kind.

    I wonder whether maybe he just happened, quite coincidentally, to be looking the other way at the moment when the bishop’s notification dropped through his letter box. My guess is we haven’t heard the last of this allegation.

    In the meantime, here’s another rumour that Catholics are muttering about on the internet. According to George Weigel (link below) Heiner Wilmer, the bishop of Hildesheim, said to be on close friendly terms with Pope Francis, is about to be appointed the new prefect of the recently renamed Dicastery (formerly the Congregation) for the Doctrine of the Faith. Weigel, a conservative Catholic, doesn’t welcome the news.

    Weigel says an announcement is expected at any moment, “perhaps as soon as December 19”. Well, December 19 is today, it’s now after 7 p.m. in Rome, and there has been no announcement so far about a new prefect to head the DDF.

    https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2022/12/16/bishop-heiner-wilmer-this-catholic-moment-and-the-catholic-future/

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    1. @ Ray
      "I wonder whether maybe he just happened, quite coincidentally, to be looking the other way at the moment when the bishop’s notification dropped through his letter box."

      Well, he does have a reputation for ducking and diving!

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  4. It is hard - very hard - to see this as anything other than 1) an attempt to buy street cred with the "right people" and 2) a warning to the "wrong people". It's easy to say in public "We acted because of X". The intended audiences can read between the lines of purported deniability.

    At root I think this was a matter of "Find something to hang him with." The formal cause was just an excuse. This priest made the mistake of making himself an easy target.

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    1. @ Carl
      There's "easy targets" and then there's outright "sitting ducks". There was not need to "find something to hang him with." His behaviour for years has been ill-disciplined and scandalous.

      He's a maverick who causes confusion about his status and standing in the Church. In fact, his canonical status as a priest has been uncertain since 2019 when he claimed to be transferring to another dioceses and bishop but has never stated where or to whom.

      Canon 265 states: Every cleric must be incardinated either in a particular church or personal prelature, or in an institute of consecrated life or society endowed with this faculty, in such a way that unattached or transient clerics are not allowed at all. A priest cannot be excardinated from his old bishop until he has his incardination letter from the new one. Meaning that Amarillo is still his diocese until this “transfer” is complete.

      Jack is surprised he wasn't laicised in 2016 after his outrage with the body of an aborted child on an altar. He was certainly warned. And remember, "persistent disobedience of the lawful instructions of his diocesan bishop," is grounds for removal.

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    2. How many priests were removed from the Priesthood for seducing teenaged boys? There is disobedience and then there is disobedience - at least according to a bishop.

      It doesn't wash, Jack. This is about the cause behind tw disobedience.

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    3. @Carl

      848 priests had been laicised and 3,400 disciplined and removed from public ministry for abuse by 2014.

      Are you saying that axing a priest who interferes with the remains of a foetus is unjust?

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    4. There May be more to this. Apparently, it was an unusual decision. See here

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    5. @ Jack

      I would be surprised if the as-yet unspecified blasphemous social media posts don't include the Facebook post of the foetus, in which the altar was profaned and, if this is correct involved a foetus obtained in very sketchy circumstances and treated without the dignity due to it (I'm surprised that there has been no criminal charge over this). As Bell has said, I don't see the Twitter posts alone pushing his case over the edge. He needs prayer and time to repent and reflect.

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    6. This priest, Fr. Stephen Imbarrato, a former member of Priests for Life who has known Fr. Pavone for 22 years, seems to know than he's saying

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    7. The top comment is telling: "other priests who have done terrible things are still in the priesthood with no consequences."

      This is true. But it doesn't mean that Fr. (now Mr., I suppose) Pavone shouldn't have been removed. I think the foetus incident on its own would (which is a desecration whatever anyone says) justifies this, and it seems that there has been much more going on behind the scenes.

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    8. @Lain

      What happened by 2014 isn't really relevant. By that time the RCC was desperately trying to wash the splattered fecal matter from its face. What did it do in the 80s and 90s? What did it do before Cardinal Law fled Boston?

      This man wasn't put out over pictures on the Internet. He was put out because Rome considered him an embarrassment.

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    9. @ Carl
      Sticking with Fr. Pavone - try reading the Catholic Culture articles on him dating back to the early 2000's that Jack has referred to on an update in the article he posted.

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    10. @Carl

      The 2014 figures answer the question you asked about how many priests had been laicised for abuse. There have been many more since then, and yes, it should have happened earlier.

      But a man who desecrates the body of an unborn child (which he apparently obtained via a Protestant pastor to whom the child had been entrusted for burial) is an embarrassment, to say the least, and should also have been removed much earlier.

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    11. @Jack,
      Yes, this Fr. Imbarrato seems to have a good perspective on the matter!

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    12. @Lain

      The RCC doesn't get credit for actions taken after the fact under compulsion of a disastrous PR scandal. How many of those priests would have been put out in the absence of the public scandal? We have only to exine the behavior of the church prior to the scandal being uncovered. Did it report these priests to the police? Did it defrock them? No. It sent them to "counseling" and then fobbed them off on other parishes. Is that a greater or less or offense than the fetal remains? Is it worse to offend the living or the dead?

      The reason for this man's dismissal is not found in his actions. Rome has proven in spades that it will overlook reprehensible actions.

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    13. @Jack

      I really don't have an opinion on whether there was technical cause to defrock him. The point is that there were scads of priests who were not defrocked despite providing much more substantial cause. Why?

      I personally know of three men who were defrocked - two for homosexual behavior and one for theft. They were given counselling and helped to the extent possible. But they never served as pastors again. There was no second chance.

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    14. @ Carl
      You won't find Jack disagreeing but do bear in mind that the sexual abuse of minors and the addictive nature of this sexual perversion was poorly understood. This was a scourge effecting all walks of life and all churches. Was the church too defensive? Yes. Did it seek to protect its image over children? Yes. Today the sexual abuse of minors leads to removal from active priesthood.

      Frank Pavone's ecclesiastical and religious offences warranted his removal from the priesthood. His behaviour has been a scandal for 15+ years. Are there others who should be sanctioned? No doubt there are. Bell has mentioned one such cleric.

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    15. @Jack

      Do you really have to understand the "addictive nature" of the behavior in order to punish it? The act is a crime. There is really no deeper understanding required when it comes to fixing punishment. It's not mitigating. The failure of the church was to not treat it as a crime.

      Now carry this realization forward into the present circumstance. Why did they take such an unusual act to dismiss this priest? What was his true fault? Because the precedent has been set. I don't believe the formally declared causes because of that precedent.

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    16. @ Carl

      I fail to see how the comparison to abuse is an argument for the disparity in justice implied by your initial comment. If your complaint is that the Vatican failed to laicise abusers until it became a public scandal, then the same is true of this priest. His almost two decades' worth of apparent disobedience have been ignored (no doubt emboldening him), until he caused greater scandal.

      If you're claiming that the abuser priests deserved laicisation but Pavone does not, and has only been censured because of his political leanings, then I don't find that argument convincing. I presume that interfering with the remains of deceased children isn't acceptable practice in your church either, and that you find it as indefensible as everyone else. I also remember outrage on Cranmer's site over leftist bishops refusing to pray for Conservatives and so forth; exactly the same kind of rhetoric that Pavone is using against Democrats, in fact. The only defence of Pavone, then, can be that his politics align with one's own, which is to do the same thing that one is complaining about.

      If your complaint is that Pavone is censured while others are left to run amok and preach heresy, then that is true - and I made the same point myself, above. However, that doesn't invalidate this judgment against Pavone: one doesn't let a car thief off because a murderer is at large. Pavone is in the wrong, and others are in the wrong. One doesn't absolve the other. As St. Peter reminds us, it is of no credit to suffer for doing evil.

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    17. @Lain

      I am saying that church authorities are being (shall we say) convenient with the truth when they state the cause of his dismissal. I don't for one minute believe this has anything to do with blasphemy or disobedience or fetal remains placed on an altar.

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    18. @ Carl
      Have you been reading Church Militant and Mundabor?

      Try reading this from a conservation site that has published numerous articles on this ex-priest. The author plays down his blasphemy/sacrilege but is still of the opinion his laicisation was long overdue.

      Dig deeper into this and you'll find concerns about misappropriation/misuse of funds. The site's search function has several articles stretching back to 2011

      The man is, at best, a maverick.

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    19. @Carl

      If it's simply a case of 'I refuse to believe this', then that's pretty much as far as reason can go. One can lead a horse to water and so on.

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  5. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-61334229.amp

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  6. Ignoring the issue of women priests if you could, this is a sad but troubling story.

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    1. @ Prof G
      "Mrs Green said she was not pro-abortion but women must have a choice and she would like abortions to be rare, but also safe and legal."

      Note the inconsistency in that statement.

      This Jack whole heartedly endorses:

      "We need to work out how we talk about abortion, because we're not going to win people over to the living, loving God by being so hate filled."

      Of course, referring to abortion as murder (which it is) tends to be automatically regarded as 'hate' by those who promote so called 'reproductive rights' for women.

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    2. That's a heartbreaking story. Lord, have mercy. You either transform your trauma or you pass it on.

      The CofE's complicity in abortion is one of the great tragedies of our time.

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    3. Yes, and this swipe at those who see elective abortion as a grave moral offence is hardly objective:

      "Abortion saves lives. But I’ve come to the conclusion that actually, people know this, You know the astonishing complexity of pregnancy, you know people get coerced, you know people are simply too poor to cope, you know all the myriad reasons someone might need safe access to abortion. The sickening thing is, you just don’t care.”

      Pro-life advocates do care about women as well as their babies.

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    4. @HJ
      Some do, some don't. And very often the care is tightly defined. There's the type of anti abortionist who sees it all as the woman's fault.

      I actually know a child fathered by rape. Not well. She was semi abandoned by the mother, brought up by the Grandmother and brutally informed of her 'heritage' by the mother as a teen. It's impossible to say she's undamaged by this knowledge but she appears happy and lives a normal life.

      I'm anti abortion, but I'd find it hard to tell a raped woman that she couldn't have one

      But one thing I do know, to much of the dialogue condemns the woman, when very often there is a man behind it all. Either as a rapist, or through emotional coercion, or abandonment. How many abortions I wonder are caused by pressure from the reluctant father?

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    5. @ Prof G
      Yes, it really isn't for us to judge individuals facing extreme situations of life and death or carrying children who are the result from rape. God knows many women are traumatised by these experiences and decisions. But how common are these situations?

      One thing Fr Pavone is correct about is that as a society we have become desensitised to abortion and what it actually is, i.e., the destruction of a human life.

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    6. @Prof

      Abortion as a result of conceiving through rape only makes up something like less than 1% of all abortions in the US (we don't seem to record that data here). The use of extremes (which is what we have in the article) to justify common practice is a logical fallacy (e.g., I had to have an abortion because my life was in danger, therefore every woman should have the right to electively abort), but they're used as an argument from emotion. The data continually show that the overwhelming majority of abortions are for convenience, with almost half of those having abortions having previously had one. There is much blame here to be placed at the feet of a society that encourages recreational sexual activity for which it expects to face no consequences. And yes, there are a lot of men guilty of taking advantage, abandoning women or coercing them into sex.

      Thankfully, conceiving by rape is uncommon, but it's a terrible trauma for the woman and child when it does occur. The child you know seems to have been damaged as much by her family as anything else, and we certainly need better ways of taking care of children in this country when the parents have failed them. It's hard to tell a raped woman that she can't have an abortion, but it's also hard to tell that girl that she didn't deserve to live because of the sins of her father.

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  7. @Lain

    I wasn't really meaning that rape justifies abortion, my point was more 1. It makes the discussion with the woman even more difficult and sensitive, and 2) we blame the woman when often it's a man that's the cause of the problem (not in the sex way) through various forms of coercion of which rape is only one.

    I agree hard cases make for bad laws, but the hard cases do need extra sensitivity and greater care of language.

    With regards the girl I know of, to clarify, the grandparents who brought her up were great and did a good job. The problems came from the mother, who found it impossible to bond with the daughter and was emotionally cold towards her.

    But although her behaviour was bad, obviously it's not hard to see why.


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    Replies
    1. Oh, I know that you weren't trying to justify it, but it is a common tactic to imply that the mean Christians are trying to punish the lines of rape victims snaking around abortion clinics, so it's worth putting into context. Anybody who doesn't find those cases hard has no soul, and I think there is a case to be made in extreme cases that giving birth to a baby conceived through rape is traumatic enough to be considered as a risk to the mother's life. On the other hand, there are women who've elected to carry the baby because they don't believe it's right to punish the unborn child for what the rapist has done. Everyone responds differently, there is no one size fits all answer, and every case deserves the utmost care, compassion and unconditional love.

      Even in non-rape cases, you are quite correct that the burden of judgement falls almost entirely on the shoulders of the woman and there is little in the way of holding the man to account (I recall this suggestion going over particularly badly with some on Cranmer's site). There's little consideration of the fact that many women who seek abortions have been either coerced into sex or abandoned thereafter, and are in desperate circumstances. It's unsurprising that they should seek out a remedy that's been normalised to such an extent that it's presented as nothing more than a routine healthcare procedure. Rather than vilify the women, the churches need to be better at offering genuine alternatives, as well as understanding and forgiveness for those who have gone through it.

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    2. @ Lain
      👍
      This is the position Pope Francis has adopted and been vilified for in certain quarters of Catholicism. It's frequently forgotten that the Church draws a distinction between objective and subjective culpability.

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    3. I think one of the problems with some discussions that the church tries to have with the wider public, and tbh I think it's particularly apparent in the RCC, is it can use a very intellectual theological language, which let's be honest, the majority of members struggle with. I know dumbing down would come with risks, but with the exception of when it speaks to itself, it should ban itself from using theological language.

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    4. Jack, if Pope Francis has been "vilified", it's not so much because of the position he takes, it's that that position is completely inappropriate in the occupant of the Throne of Peter. It's a humanist outlook; he's there, after a fashion, as a kind of theological Supreme Court. His primary function is to guard the constitution/magisterium, and he doesn't get to interpret it as a "living document". It doesn't change with the prevailing wind, and he doesn't know better than a two thousand year old magisterium.

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    5. @ Prof G
      Yes, and Jack's as guilty as the next man/woman.

      All "objective" and "subjective" culpability means is that the person committing a gravely immoral act (like abortion) may or may have full knowledge of its gravity or may not be acting with complete consent. For example, a person may be acting through ignorance of the moral law or be under severe psychological pressure due to their particular circumstances.

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    6. @ Bell
      As Jack recalls, Jesus asked Peter to both "lead" and "feed" His sheep.

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    7. @ Jack

      Unfortunately, some people have failed to grasp the implications of their own wretchedness before God (1 Tim 1:15, Phil 2:3, Luke 18:11, etc.) and still need the assurance that there are worse sinners than them out there. The suggestion that one might show compassion to sinners, as Christ did without exception, is lost beneath a black-and-white borderline idolising of 'the Law' (which, as we know, cannot save).

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    8. @HJ

      I wasn't meaning you! This forum is eminently suitable for proper theological discussions. I was thinking of public papel pronouncements (encyclicals?).

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    9. @ Lain
      Absolutely ... it was those who believed they had no need of God's forgiveness or exploited the poor, He condemned. Others, He revealed Himself too and turned their hearts to His Father.

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    10. @ Prof G
      Encyclicals, by their very nature, have to be tightly written in a heavily theological style. It's the daily papal homilies and less formal addresses that express Church teachings one needs to listen to.

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  8. Pavone's response to his laicisation can be read here

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