A Speculation -- Why Judas Betrayed Jesus

This is a post by Bell from his weblog Bell in the Breach which he kindly invited Jack to publish or link to.

Happy Jack will follow this up with an article considering Judas' eternal fate in a few days time. So, for now, please focus on Judas' motives.

I

Which disciple has the greatest influence on the world today? Peter, the buffoon who tried to walk on water? The braggart who swore allegiance up and down and then disappeared so fast when the squeeze went on there was nothing left behind but a hologram of dust? No, not him. How about John, the beloved? Loyal to the foot of the cross, right there to the last breath of the Body? Please. Paul, then, the brilliant intellect and zealous converter of souls? In a world where “it’s all good”, not so much. No, it’s none of them. I’ll give you a hint – it’s Judas Iscariot. Forgot about him, didn’t you? But he was an apostle too, and that’s a troubling thought.

In truth, we know nothing about him. The only historical sources we have on him are the four gospels (and yes, scholars do consider them historical sources) and they’re oddly coy about him. In Matthew and Mark, aside from the initial naming of the twelve, he just appears at the end, diabloli ex machina. He does the deed, then vanishes, no explanation, no by-your-leave, just collect 30 pieces of silver and do not pass go. Luke just tells us “the devil entered into him”, like it was nothing to do with him personally, and only John even mentions him in a context outside the betrayal. This comes in Chapter 12, verses 4-6, where he upbraids Mary, the sister of Lazarus, for pouring spikenard over the feet of Our Lord rather than selling the expensive ointment and giving the money to the poor. But actually, by telling us this, John may have said a mouthful.

It’s worth quoting the verses entirely. “Then one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, he that was about to betray Him, said: why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein.”

This is a hard accusation, and appears to be a very explicit one: Judas wanted the money given to him, the keeper of the common purse, ostensibly to feed the poor, but in reality, to pocket it himself. Certainly, a cursory scan of the verses would support that reading, but what justification is there in the gospels to back up what John is saying? There isn’t any. Should we then dismiss what he says? By no means. There is an alternative reading here. We’ll get back to it, but before then, we need to look at John.

The first mark against him – and his brother James – is the sobriquet “sons of thunder” given to them by Jesus (Mark 3:17). It’s never made explicit why He did this, but since He never did anything without a reason, we may surmise. In Luke 9:54, when Jesus and His disciples were not made welcome in a Samaritan village, John and James asked if they should call down fire from Heaven to consume the place. A quick temper and a sense of outrage seem to be the defining characteristics of the young John, so Jesus may have given the name as a rebuke, or possibly in jest. Humour is not a characteristic we associate with Jesus, but He was completely human as well as divine.

What else do we know of John? That he was possibly of a wealthy family. In Mark 1, 19-20, it is mentioned that Zebedee, the father of John, had “hired men” on the payroll. Again, in his own gospel, at 18 15-16, (although this one is a little more tenuous) John tells us that “...Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple, and that disciple was known to the High Priest and went in with Jesus into the court of the High Priest. But Peter stood at the door without. The other disciple, therefore, who was known to the High Priest, went out and spoke to the portress and brought in Peter”.

Now that disciple was clearly a man of some influence. Who was he? Could it have been the author himself, John? If it was, we might reasonably ask why he didn’t simply state as much? On the other hand, nowhere else does either John or Matthew, the other apostle-evangelist, refer to himself in the first person, so why do so here? (It’s not entirely clear if the “I” in John 21:25 is John himself or a scribe taking down John’s testimony. The use of the first person is extremely rare in the New Testament, and this usage is unique in the Gospels) It may just have been simple modesty. According to his own gospel, only one disciple stood at the foot of the cross, the rest having scattered, but he does not directly claim that honour by naming himself. This person is only “the disciple”. But if it was another disciple, why not name him?

It’s all very confusing, and all completely speculative, but here’s my vision of John – he was a rich kid with a fast temper, a caustic tongue and an easily outraged code of morality whose native sense of justice demanded punishment of the wrongdoer out of all proportion to the sin, and he was the very man to call it down on them. Does that sound familiar? *Cough* social justice warriors *Cough*. That tells us why we shouldn’t believe John when he calls Judas a thief – because in the minds of such people, “bad guys” are always entirely bad and guilty of every sin, therefore it would not be wrong to call him a thief even if he didn’t know him to be one. Now, what tells us we should believe him?

Well, assuming he is “the disciple”, there’s that sense of modesty. You don’t get that striding in and out of the High Priest’s lodgings all your days like you live there yourself, or from ordering the servants around. Yet, (again, assuming John to be the disciple known to the High Priest) it’s there in the anonymity. So where did it come from? To understand that, it’s necessary to remember that he set down his gospel decades after the events described therein, probably in the sixties AD, perhaps later. (Despite the common dating of John around 90 AD, this is more of a gentlemen’s agreement between scholars than a proven, established fact; it could well have been before 70 AD). Put shortly, he’d been through the mill and come out the other side with the wisdom of experience and suffering. He’d been ground down like corn and I submit that by the time he came to write his gospel, he knew better than to lie about people just because they were bad guys and he didn’t like them. Which brings us back to that alternative reading of 12 4-6, and although it doesn’t literally meld with the direct accusation that Judas was a thief, it does accord with a more nuanced interpretation; John may have regarded Judas as a thief, but I suspect he meant something else than a common tea leaf.

II

We’ve dealt with John, but what do we know about Judas? The biggest, most obvious standout is that he’s the only one of the twelve with a surname, Iscariot. Peter is sometimes called Simon Bar Jonah, but that’s not a surname in the way we usually interpret the term. It just means his birth name was Simon and his father was called Jonah. But “Iscariot” sounds like a proper name, like Jones, or Thompson or Murphy. Is it?

Unlikely. It’s not a name that seems to appear anywhere else. There’s no Iscariot family we’ve ever heard of – or if there was, they dropped the name PDQ, a bit like the Hitlers. Did it signify anything? There is some speculation that it might have designated Judas as one of the Sicarii, the “dagger-men”, a group of Jewish zealots who used terrorist-style tactics to secure independence from Rome. This explanation would fit with the supposition that the Jews were waiting for a political messiah, rather than a spiritual one, and in this regard, Jesus was a disappointment at best, and a false messiah at worst. Certainly, that would explain why Judas, if he were a zealot, might have betrayed Jesus to the authorities; from his point of view, Jesus would have been a fraud.

But there are problems with this interpretation. One is that by no means all Jews were waiting for a worldly leader. It has become a common assumption today that they were, but Judaism was a much broader church then than now. It should be remembered the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church. Yes, all the books which make it up were in circulation at the time of Christ, but there was no authority saying this book was canonical while that one was not, so while the Sadducees recognized only the five books of Moses, the Pharisees acknowledged a different set and other groups another set again, and those who gave a particular weight to the prophecies of Isaiah, for example, would not have been counting on a military messiah at all, but rather, exactly the kind of messiah they got with Jesus, albeit they would not have been expecting God Incarnate Himself. Against this background, would Judas not simply have deserted, rather than outright betray Him? Christ would, from the zealot perspective, have just have been another false dawn, another one of the Isaiah people.

The second problem is chronology. The Sicarii only appear in the historical record after the Crucifixion; they don’t seem to have existed at the time of Christ. And finally, we just don’t have any evidence that Judas was a zealot at all. He may have been, but there’s nothing saying he was. Despite the numerous depictions of him as such on film and in books, such as Ian McShane’s portrayal in 1977’s Jesus of Nazareth, it’s really just an assumption on our part.

There is, however, another, much more intriguing interpretation of the name, and one that opens up a far more relevant – for us – question to ponder. The name could be descriptive in the same way as “Simon Bar Jonah”. Just as Peter’s original name simply meant that he was the son of Jonah, so “Iscariot” may be a corruption of the Hebrew is, meaning “man”, and Qeriot, a town in Judea south of Jerusalem, thus we have “Judas, man of Qeriot”. Now this is fascinating, because at once it separates Judas from the other eleven, certainly geographically, and very possibly sociologically. The others were all Galilean, not only from a provincial fastness, but also from what was – administratively – another country, since Galilee was nominally under the rule of Herod Antipas. So, if Judas really was a “man of Qeriot”, then he was an outsider in the group, and it’s a fair bet, as a “townie”, more worldly than the others. Some, such as the biblical scholar Géza Vermes, hold that the name comes from the word qiryah, which simply means town. This would not specifically link Judas to a particular place, but in the context of a movement which came out of the countryside, I would submit that the descriptor “man of the town” is significant. I think we’re talking about the age-old tension between the “salt of the earth” country folk and the sophisticated city slicker.

III

But why was it the city boy who was to be the traitor? Because city people are hard headed and worldly? Because they are prideful of that worldliness? Maybe. Pride is the queen of sins, after all, and the essence of Christianity is humility, the recognition that there is something greater than yourself. Many people acknowledge this in the abstract, but living it is another matter, and living it is what Jesus asked, and in the fourteenth chapter of John we see an even bigger ask from Jesus when He says

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.”

Earlier, in chapter six, we hear the biggest ask of them all:

“Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.”

This is the only time in scripture where people got up and walked away from Jesus. They had to accept what He was telling them as the literal truth or go, and when they went, He didn’t call them back. And here’s the rub – who would find these things easier, town or country? Clue – chapter six takes place outside of Capernaum. Capernaum was not a metropolis by any means, but at its peak it may have contained about 1500 souls, so not some mountain village like Nazareth. Big enough, however, to be the cock of the regional dung heap, and the place which, for a time, was the centre of Jesus’ ministry. Matthew, in his gospel, tells us at 11 20-24,

“Then began He to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of His miracles, for that they had not done penance. Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.”

Nothing He did in the city persuaded the city of who He was.

Penance, according to the Catholic Church, is “...a supernatural moral virtue whereby the sinner is disposed to hatred of his sin as an offence against God and to a firm purpose of amendment and satisfaction. The principal act in the exercise of this virtue is the detestation of sin, not of sin in general nor of that which others commit, but of one’s own sin. The motive of this detestation is that sin offends God.” (Catholic Encyclopaedia)

Starting to see where this is going yet? One final definition, charity. No, theologically, it doesn’t mean the local food bank or the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, worthy as these things are. Charity is the third and greatest of the theological virtues – the others being faith and hope – and is defined as the love of God for His own sake and the love of man for the sake of God. That last bit is important because it tells us that the love of man is incidental to the love of God. If you love God, the works of mercy follow, but you don’t love Him through those works, or by those works. This can be confusing, since the Catholic Church has always held that faith without works is dead, but it becomes more apparent when you turn it the other way around – you can wave your faith like the Oriflamme of France, but if there are no good works coming forth on foot of it, we need a rethink about Who we love.

IV

So, we have a world-wise townie who thinks of the poor before he thinks of God, and a city – read “society” – which does not think it needs to do penance or atone for anything, least of all for walking away from God. After all, it’s really concerned about the poor, so that’s all right, isn’t it? Does this sound at all familiar? First, let’s get back to that alternative reading of Judas as a thief. What did he steal? The money? Maybe he did, but money’s only metal. What he really stole was the worship and glory due to God. He didn’t love Him for His own sake, so how could he love the poor for His sake? Maybe that’s what John meant when he called him a thief, and if it is, then it raises some pretty uncomfortable questions for us because it raises an image of God which doesn’t at all fit with the “Jesus of the Poor” image the Church – in fact, all the churches and, in the secular sphere, all the political parties – puts out nowadays. Is it the case that the old Baltimore Catechism nailed it? That the purpose of man is to know, love and serve God, not one another? That bit follows, but it’s incidental. If that is the case, does John’s accusation now make more sense?

The modern definition of theft in most common law jurisdictions is, “to dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive”. Note that there is no necessity here for the thief to enrich himself. It is sufficient that he purloins – for whatever purpose – that which belongs to someone else. By that definition, Robin Hood was as big a thief as Dick Turpin, so even if Judas actually had been concerned about the use to which the spikenard was put, he was still a thief by John’s lights. More importantly, he was a thief by God’s lights. Giving the money to the poor would not cleanse the sin.

And the question is, if God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived (to use St Anselm’s definition), then how could you not love Him? And we know the answer to that one – because we don’t really believe. We’re hardwired to believe, even the atheists concede that one, although they will argue that the wiring is done by nature for evolutionary reasons, but in the end, we have to make that leap of faith that it took even Peter decades to finally make. That’s why Christ didn’t call them – us – back in chapter six of John. In this instance, God proposes, but ultimately it must be man who disposes, or rather, each individual man or woman.

Judas made his choice, and he didn’t make it for money, not in the end. In the end, it’s never about that. He just couldn’t bring himself to believe. Pride. It was as simple as that, but that was enough to change everything, and it was the wound from which all that followed flowed.

Comments

  1. Thank you Bell, and thank you Jack for sharing. A very interesting read, which I am still pondering on.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you, Grutchy. Good to see you back,

      Delete
    2. Haven't actually been away - just not always sure I have something to add if that makes sense :)

      Delete
    3. It does - but your contributions are always worth a read.

      Delete
  2. At a general audience in October 2006, Pope Benedict XVI, whilst acknowledging the mystery of Judas' betrayal, considered possible motives:

    "Why did he betray Jesus? The question raises several theories. Some say it was his greed for money; others give an explanation of a messianic nature: Judas was disappointed on seeing that Jesus did not fit the program of the political-military liberation of his country.

    In fact, the Gospel texts insist on another aspect: John says expressly that 'the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him' (John 13:2); in the same way, Luke writes: 'Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve' (Luke 22:3).

    In this way, one goes beyond historical motivations, explaining what occurred by basing it on Judas' personal responsibility, who yielded miserably to a temptation of the evil one. In any case, Judas' betrayal continues to be a mystery. Jesus treated him as a friend (cf. Matthew 26:50), but in his invitations to follow him on the path of the beatitudes he did not force his will or prevent him from falling into Satan's temptations, respecting human freedom.


    He then went on to teach a broader lesson for all of us:

    "In fact, the possibilities of perversion of the human heart are truly many. The only way to prevent them consists in not cultivating a view of life that is only individualistic, autonomous, but in always placing oneself on the side of Jesus, assuming his point of view.

    We must try, day after day, to be in full communion with him. Let us recall that even Peter wanted to oppose him and what awaited him in Jerusalem, but he received a very strong rebuke: 'Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men' (Mark 8:32-33).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is it a mystery? Each person who briefly encountered the earthly Christ was left either transformed or bitter and Judas was part of Christ's inner circle, where one would expect those results to be amplified. Judas wanted to form Christ in his own image, and betrayed him for profit when he couldn't. Everyone does this, and usually for far less than pieces of silver.

      Delete
    2. Why some close to Christ yield to the temptations of Satan and betray Him of their own free will, resisting God's grace, and others do not, is a mystery.

      It's something we're all capable of doing. As Benedict XVI says, "the possibilities of perversion of the human heart are truly many. The only way to prevent them consists in not cultivating a view of life that is only individualistic, autonomous, but in always placing oneself on the side of Jesus, assuming his point of view."

      Delete
    3. On the contrary, the fact that we have free will means that it isn't a mystery. The idea that humans are 'rational creatures' is a modern fairytale - most of us make counterintuitive, harmful and stupid decisions all the time. Except me, obvs.

      Being close to the light is painful. Just like unpleasant medicines, some people can't take it and would rather push it away.

      Delete
    4. As the Catechism says, when God “establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace” There is a certain mystery involved in God’s predestined plan. There are many unanswerable questions. Why does God give more grace to some than others (see Rom 12:6, 1 Pt 4:10)? Why does God allow someone to be born and live knowing they will eventually choose to reject him (see Rom 9:22)? Why doesn’t God give the one rejecting him more grace?

      Delete
    5. Rom. 12:6 and 1 Pt. 4:10 aren't about God giving some more grace than others; they're about God's grace manifesting in different ways in different gifts. 'As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.' Rom 9:22 isn't about individuals rejecting God, it's about the status of the Jewish people in light of the new covenant. St. Paul is setting up a hypothetical scenario (i.e. Calvinism) which he goes on to explicitly reject in the following chapters. God's grace is equally and freely available to all, for 'there is no partiality with God' (Rom. 2:11).

      Delete
    6. "God's grace is equally and freely available to all."

      Grace is certainly available to all because God wills all to be saved. But we know from scripture that it's not equally available; Mary being a prime example. Paul is another example. Indeed, salvation history is full of such men and women selected by God. And we're left with Judas being chosen by Jesus knowing he would betray Him.

      Delete
    7. How so? Are Mary and St. Paul more saved than anyone else? Or were they simply given different manifestations of grace for their unique roles? Unless we assert that neither Mary nor Paul had free will, in which case we end up with Calvin's automatons.

      Jesus selected many disciples who deserted and betrayed him (i.e., all of them!), not just Judas.

      Delete
    8. Judas was an apostle - in the inner core of Christ's followers. John didn't betray or desert Jesus during His passion.

      A Molonist would say God's "middle knowledge" meant He foresaw how they would use the special graces bestowed on them and that He withholds special graces from those He knows will not use them.

      As Jack said, it's a mystery.

      Delete
    9. When Christ was arrested, 'all the disciples forsook Him and fled', even 'the rock'. The Greek for 'forsook' in this context is the same as 'to totally abandon all claims upon' - the same word underlies the disciples 'leaving' their nets when they answered the call in Mk 1:18, and Peter's statement that they have 'left everything' to follow Christ (Mk 10:28).

      It's not a mystery! Surely Jack worked in social care long enough to know that some people simply betray and take advantage of those who've shown them nothing but unconditional love.

      God's grace is undivided; it manifests in different ways in different people according to their gifts - but this is a difference in category, not quantity. Someone who does, say, church cleaning has no less access to grace than a great evangelist, and the grace they receive is not an inferior kind. There's no need to divide grace for special graces, unless one believes that some cannot do good without an extra boost (quasi-Calvinism) or that God does show partiality (full blown Calvinism!) - withholding grace from someone who 'won't use it' is partiality.

      Delete
    10. Here's a sound article covering the issues involved.

      Delete
    11. It seems to me that this is a lot of work caused by the unnecessary subdivision of God's undivided energies into separate categories. There's also, I think, a fair degree of equivocation in saying that when 'the man [who] throws away the only thing that could have saved him ... the Father decrees to let him go: negative reprobation' is a form of 'predestination'.

      God has two modes of moving, ordinary and extraordinary. In the ordinary mode, He does permit man to impede, as St. Thomas says. In the extraordinary mode, God, by transcendence, can prevent resistance from developing or cut through it if it has already arisen, without altogether taking away free will ...

      In the ordinary mode, God would simply permit that resistance to have its effect, but in the extraordinary mode, He forestalls resistance or cancels it out. If He does this, that is, if He forestalls resistance or cancels it out, then the first decision on what is to happen does not come from the man as it would normally, in accord with CG 3: 159 which says a man can impede, with which S. Paul agrees in 2 Cor 6: 1: "We urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain. Instead, in the extraordinary mode the decision on whether it will be effective or not comes from God.


      This doesn't follow. If God is making decisions for us, it's Calvin's 'irresistible grace' and runs contrary to scriptural statements of God's impartiality and our own responsibility. One presumes, then, that the opposite applies to Judas - God either declined to exercise such control or ensured Judas acted out his betrayal: in either case his condemnation would be unjust.

      Delete
    12. These are the central proposition of Fr Most:

      There is no time in God, but one thing may be logically before another. There are three logical points in His decisions on predestination:

      1) God wills all men to be saved. This is explicit in 1 Tim 2: 4, and since to love is to will good to another for the other's sake, this is the same as saying God loves us. To deny that, as Bañez did is a horrendous error, it denies the love of God. How strong this love is can be seen by the obstacle it overcame in the work of opening eternal happiness to us: the death of Christ on the cross.

      2) God looks to see who resists His grace gravely and persistently, so persistently that the person throws away the only thing that could save him. With regrets, God decrees to let such persons go: reprobation because of and in view of grave and persistent resistance to grace.

      3) All others not discarded in step two are positively predestined, but not because of merits, which are not at all in view yet, nor even because of the lack of such resistance, but because in step 1, God wanted to predestine them, and they are not stopping Him. This is predestination without merits.


      The section you're referring to, Fr Most adds:

      But that, being a diminution of freedom, has to be extraordinary, since God normally observes His grant of free will. To routinely not observe that grant would be self-contradiction for Him. God can routinely do this.

      Even in the ordinary mode, it is grace that is efficacious. At the critical juncture which decides everything my contribution is a metaphysical zero, the lack of blocking it.

      When does He use this extraordinary mode?: Since He loves all that is right and good, it seems He will use the extraordinary mode only when someone other than the recipient - who would surely not do it for himself - puts an extraordinary weight into the scales of the objective order. That makes it suitable to grant an extraordinary grace, by way of exception. The extraordinary weight will be heroic penance and prayer, as in the case of St. Augustine's mother.

      Delete
    13. Fr. Most creates a contradiction in God. There are two presumptions underlying this argument:

      1. God is good (love)
      2. God is just

      From which we extrapolate that:

      A. God wills that all should be saved (because 1) BUT
      B. God allows people to freely reject his salvation (because 2, laying aside the questionable logic of asserting that infinite punishment for finite offence is justice)

      If God has an 'extraordinary mode', which he uses to overcome/prevent resistance to his grace only in some cases, then B is false (he only allows some people to freely reject him), in which case (2) is also false (God is not just if he is partial (or salvation is earned after all)). Furthermore, A is false (since God doesn't will that everyone be saved sufficiently to ensure that they all are, just some of them). Therefore (1) is false: God cannot be good if he is partial.

      ... it seems He will use the extraordinary mode only when someone other than the recipient - who would surely not do it for himself - puts an extraordinary weight into the scales of the objective order.

      Then we have Pelagianism by proxy: in St. Monica's case, this would imply that she earned her son's salvation through her good works. This surely cannot be correct.

      Delete
    14. Well. Jack believes he's resolved the issues between Thomist reasoning and Molinist reasoning.

      God perfect will is that all be saved - but His consequent will is that it be a free decision. And if people reject His grace, they remain separate from Him and reject salvation. Unless you're a universalist, there can be no issue with this.

      Intercessory prayer and its effectiveness is part of orthodox Christianity. The extraordinary is just that - extraordinary. Hardly Pelagianism given that St Augustine then freely used this intervention to dedicate His life to God.

      It's clear from scripture that God does favour some over others. Fr Most addresses this. At the end of it we're left with, "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?'"

      Delete
    15. That's a cop out. God equipped us with rational minds and faith doesn't require us to turn them off. Either we have to say that infinite punishment for finite sins is good and just (in which case God isn't good in any meaningful way), or God's command that we multiply (knowing that most of those we bring into the world are eternally damned) is simply sadistic and any Christian parent has taken leave of their senses.

      Delete
    16. Is rejection of God's grace and, ultimately, God a "finite" sin? He gives us all sufficient grace to turn to Him, repent, and. through Christ, be one with Him.

      Delete
    17. Is rejection of God's grace and, ultimately, God a "finite" sin?

      Yes. How could it not be? We are finite creatures. Unless we contend that rejection continues post-mortem, in which case it must necessarily also be possible to repent in the next age, or the 'rejection' isn't free and the punishment unjust.

      He gives us all sufficient grace to turn to Him, repent, and. through Christ, be one with Him.

      Not on the view outlined above, where his extension of special, irresistible, grace is partial.

      Delete
    18. That's "extraordinary grace" - not the ordinary means of salvation.

      "We are finite creatures. Unless we contend that rejection continues post-mortem, in which case it must necessarily also be possible to repent in the next age, or the 'rejection' isn't free and the punishment unjust."

      Our souls are immortal, not finite. Who knows if between life and death we are given an opportunity to accept Christ? However, the Church has consistently taught that the prospect of eternal damnation is real, though it has never contended any specific person is there; not even Judas.

      The parable of the wedding feast shows the Kingdom of God is open to everybody. But at the end of the parable we see an interaction between the king and a man who was not dressed appropriately. He ordered the servants to bind this man and to throw him into the darkness where he will cry and gnash his teeth. The unsuitably dressed man represents those who were not prepared for complete commitment to Jesus.

      Is this irony on the part of Christ? One supposes the servants sent out would offer the correct attire to those invited. These included "the bad as well as the good".

      Delete
    19. That's "extraordinary grace" - not the ordinary means of salvation.

      Potato potato. If God 'imposes' graces on some but not others, then he is, inescapably by definition, unjust.

      Our souls are immortal, not finite

      That isn't relevant, unless one also has a correspondingly infinite chance to repent after death. Otherwise, every single human collapses into an eternal one; my immortal soul shoplifted a lipstick when I was 12, so I should be punished eternally for it. That's just silly, not to mention horrendously unjust and unloving. No human parent would act that way, and if God truly is greater than the greatest thing we can imagine, neither would he.

      ... the Church has consistently taught that the prospect of eternal damnation is real

      Except is hasn't.

      The parable of the wedding feast shows the Kingdom of God is open to everybody. But at the end of the parable we see an interaction between the king and a man who was not dressed appropriately.

      "Master Ikkyu was invited to a banquet by his wealthy patrons, and arrived dressed in his beggar’s robes. The host, who failed to recognise him, chased him away. Ikkyu returned home, changed into his ceremonial robe, and returned; he was reverently received into the banquet room. There, he placed his robe on the cushion, saying, 'It seems that you invited the robe, not me, since you chased me away not long ago,' and left."

      The parable of the wedding feast says nothing about eternal damnation; it's about attiring oneself correctly for the Kingdom (i.e., with virtuous practices), or being left outside (for an unspecified time). It's notable that the parable appears in this form only in St. Matthew's Gospel, who is at pains to emphasis to his Jewish audience the folly of presuming that an accident of birth is sufficient for salvation - 'do not think to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father"'. Note that the parables it follows in Ch. 21 (including the cursing of the fruitless fig tree) are all about the gentiles inheriting the kingdom that Israel assumes is rightfully hers. Luke's version, with its blanket compulsion to attend, is far more universalist in its outlook.

      Delete
    20. The theft of lipstick by a 12 year old is hardly comparable to, for example, an unrepentant rapist or murderer! A person who culpably and persistently rejects grace is who we're discussing.

      At the end of the parable of the wedding feast, Our Lord adds: "For many are called but few are chosen." It's our acceptance of Christ and living accordingly, that prepares us for the kingdom of heaven.

      As for J.W. Hanson, a Universalist, his arguments are not accepted by the Church. Just as Calvin's and Luther's are not. The view that all people or possibly all creatures, which may include the demons and even the devil himself, will be saved, is a view that you can find going far back in church history, but it's not a common one. It’s an extreme minority view in church history. A few Church Fathers endorsed this view. The Church condemned the doctrine of universalism; the view that we can know with certainty that all people will be saved.

      Are David Bentley Hart's opinions considered orthodox within Eastern Orthodoxy? There's a criticism of his opinions by a protestant theologian here..

      Is this view of Eastern Orthodoxy's view of Hell accurate:

      "Many Eastern theologians have said that Hell is just the reaction that the damned have to God’s presence, that God’s holiness, for example, that when God’s holiness is received by different people, it is experienced in different ways. So, those who are saints in Heaven, the canonized, so the saints in Heaven who are freed from sin, they experience God as infinite bliss and it’s wonderful. The saved who ... are being purified of their sins, they experience God as possibly a painful kind of cleansing environment, that they see they’re moving towards the good, but it’s not a pleasant road going along the way. For them, the experience of God is kind of like the experience of going to the dentist, to use an analogy that’s helpful with children to explain what purgatory is like.

      But the damned, what makes Hell Hellish is they experience God and it is just awful for them. They are in torment because they hate that goodness since they love themselves. Have you ever seen a narcissist? Somebody who is just in love with themselves, they’re always bragging about themselves. When they’re among a group of people and they’re with somebody who is objectively better than them, someone who is smarter, funnier, better looking, more accomplished, they’re always trying to one up that person and they can’t, and it just drives them crazy. And so, they don’t want to be a part of that. They don’t want to have to deal with that, it’s irritating to them. And so if that was magnified infinite fold in Hell for people to experience God, then it’s almost like there’s a kind of justice that in the afterlife everybody gets God and your temperament, how you’re fixed at death, whether your soul was fixed, oriented towards God or away God, will determine how you receive him for all eternity."

      (Trent Hall, Catholic Answers)

      Delete
    21. The theft of lipstick by a 12 year old is hardly comparable to, for example, an unrepentant rapist or murderer!

      But it is. I broke a commandment and 'whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, [s]he is guilty of all'. If I'd been hit by a bus on the way home, I'd burn forever.

      At the end of the parable of the wedding feast, Our Lord adds: "For many are called but few are chosen."

      If this really refers to our eternal destines, then a) we're back to Calvinism - the saved are 'chosen' and b) if the majority will be damned, the Catholic push for large families is an act of unimaginable cruelty. Let me ask you as a grandfather: why did you bring children into the world if only a 'few' will be saved? Will you enjoy heaven knowing that most of your children and grandchildren will be punished eternally, because of your decision to procreate?

      . A few Church Fathers endorsed this view. The Church condemned the doctrine of universalism; the view that we can know with certainty that all people will be saved.

      Eternal damnation was a minority view among the early Fathers. The alleged condemnation of universalism at the Council of Constantinople is dubious and open to interpretation. We cannot know anything for certain, of course, but we can know when something is plainly incoherent - a god of love punishing his subjects for eternity for wrongthink, for example, or a plan for salvation that creates a New World that's worse than the Old. Linguistic attempts to let God off the hook by making damnation 'our choice' are as unconvincing as allowing a child in our care to set fire to herself because it was 'her choice' to play with matches.

      Are David Bentley Hart's opinions considered orthodox within Eastern Orthodoxy?

      Yes, although a minority view. Here is Fr. Sergius Bulgakov (+1944), who was a renowned Russian Orthodox theologian and professor of Dogmatic Theology at St. Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute, Paris (linked in the above):

      Those who understand eternity as temporal infinity (i.e., theologians of all confessions) attempt to affirm the infinite, or “eternity,” of the torments of hell in all manner of ways—apologetically, patristically, exegetically. They attempt to prove the justice of the infinite duration of punishment even for temporal sins and the conformity of this punishment with God’s wisdom and love. A whole theodicy of eternal torments is thus constructed ... The Church has not issued a precise determi­nation on this issue, although the doctrine of scholastic theology attempts to pass itself off as such a determi­nation. But, actually, this doctrine only expresses the “opinion” of one of the two tendencies that have opposed each other and continue to oppose each other in theology. Even the definitions that condemn Origenism, which previously had been attributed to the fifth ecumenical council, have been shown by recent historical inquiry not to originate in this council. Even if they had so originated, they would still require interpretation and very careful commentary.

      Delete
    22. To add, as I forgot: yes, Trent Hall's summary is broadly right: both the 'saved' and the 'damned', for want of a better categorisation, have the same experience after death: immersion in the love of God. For those whose souls are pure, this is bliss. For those who aren't, it's agony. This is different to the predominant western view that God rewards some with bliss and punishes some with torments.

      '... how you’re fixed at death, whether your soul was fixed, oriented towards God or away God, will determine how you receive him for all eternity'

      This, as above, is where Orthodox opinions differ. It's 'an' Orthodox view, but it's not 'the' Orthodox view (and it's a logical nonstarter IMO).

      Delete
    23. Odd that the Orthodox Church can't agree on a fundamental issue about our faith - but, heigh-ho.

      In the interests of transparency candour, here’s an article from a somewhat progressive' site Jack pops in and out of. Some articles are good; some not so. This one, might be of interest to you.

      Delete
    24. I suppose a swipe at the Church is easier than answering any of the questions I raised! I didn't think Anton was posting here...

      If the vast majority of the population burning in hell for eternity is fundamental to our faith, then the gospel is no euangelion, it's a cause for deep distress and mourning; the incarnation is a failure and the new heaven and new earth, in which all is supposedly restored under Christ, is a pale and miserable impersonation of the world before the Fall.

      I'm endlessly surprised at how many Christians are just peachy with the idea of their loved ones burning in hell forever, and just won't engage with the ramifications of their ideas (because, I imagine, they're horrendous). Perhaps I just don't understand what love means: I'd personally rather burn myself than let even Hitler suffer those torments. That makes me more moral than the Christ of 'traditional' Christianity, of course, but I'm sure that someone's written a massive book to try to obfuscate their way around that particular issue and salve their conscious.

      In Mahayana Buddhism, a bodhisattva is a person who has attained enlightenment and freedom from the cycle of rebirth and suffering, but elects to continue to reincarnate because they have vowed to free all other beings from suffering before they release themselves. Their love and compassion compels them to be the 'last one out', as it were, and ensure that nobody is lost. What a pity that the Christian God apparently can't reach such levels of compassion. Maybe we need to pray that process theology is right after all, and God can learn to do better.

      Delete
    25. Jack would say that entry (or not) to God's presence after bodily death is a fundamental issue for those teaching the Gospel. And it is a significant issue in Eastern Orthodoxy that a full Ecumenical Council hasn't been held since the 8th century.

      Your seeming anger at the recorded words of Christ (and the inspired authors of scripture) doesn't cut-it as a response, and placing yourself above the Tradition of the Church is a dangerous place to go.

      Delete
    26. Forgot to mention that the article Jack posted does address the points you raised.

      Delete
  3. Judas was motivated by money but also he did not like Jesus because he felt uncomfortable around Jesus He, knew intrinsically that he, Judas,... was not a worthy person He rightfully suffered from self loathing and. people like this destroy anything good in their lives.As for Jesus already knowing this...well Jesus was human as well and very busy coping with his life and responsibilities and did not go zooming in on the future all the time even though he could have if he wished because he was living out the human aspect of the Trinity.... Why do people like Judas exist? . God gives everyone free will and if God is just then everyone gets the opportunity at some stage where they can turn things around....it's up to them. If they choose not to God knows the reason and we will never know why. Satan is awesomely powerful and is hard to fight off....the reason it's a good idea to pray for others so as to loosen his grip on them.I believe in Jesus God of the New Testament who is merciful kind
    and all things good and who would never set a challenge to any human being if he did not think that person was up to the mark and could manage it successfully.He knows the strengths and weaknesses in all of us. He loves us and wants us all to be saved. And don't go thinking well he
    knows already who will be and who wont be. Yes he does but he does not have to know if he prefers not to. How do i know all of this? I don't know....I just do

    ReplyDelete
  4. Warmly recommended: Three Versions of Judas by Jorge Luis Borges. Just to clear up any possible doubt, this is a work of fiction.
    https://southerncrossreview.org/49/borges-judas-eng.htm

    ReplyDelete

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

Has Israel lost the war against Hamas?

The Wind that's Coming

Shades of Things to Come?