Archbishop Welby - £100m Compensation to Descendants of Black Slaves
The fund follows a Church Commissioners 2022 interim report looking into the origins of its investments. It found that the Queen Anne’s Bounty, a financial scheme established in the 18th century, was linked to transatlantic chattel slavery.
The report’s writers found that the Queen Anne’s Bounty fund “invested significant amounts” of its funds in the South Sea Company, a firm founded in 1711 to refinance England’s national debt which was awarded the monopoly on Britain’s trade of enslaved people to the Spanish Americas." They estimate that the South Sea Company transported 34,000 slaves “in crowded, unsanitary, unsafe and inhumane conditions” during its 30 years of operation. A significant portion of the Bounty’s income during the 18th century was derived from sources that may be linked to transatlantic chattel slavery, principally interest and dividends on South Sea Company annuities and benefactions from wealthy individuals,”
Justin Welby, apologised for any historic ties to slavery: “I am deeply sorry for these links. It is now time to take action to address our shameful past. It’s hard to do this at a time when resources in many parishes are so stretched, but by acting rightly, we open ourselves to the blessing of God.”
The £100m will be spent ‘“investing for a better and fairer future for all, particularly for communities affected by historic slavery”, the Church said. An oversight group is also to be set up this year with “significant membership from communities impacted by historic slavery” to help shape and deliver a response to the report.
The Bishop of Manchester, the Right Reverend Dr David Walker, deputy chairman of the Church Commissioners, said he was also “deeply sorry” for the fund’s “shaming” historic links to the slave trade. He added: “We will seek to address past wrongs by investing in a better future, which we plan to do with the response plan announced today, including the £100 million funding commitment we are making. We hope this will create a lasting positive legacy, serving and enabling communities impacted by slavery.”
From an article by Gavin Ashenden in the Catholic Herald
Whatever the justification for this funding, it pays no attention to many other factors. Does no credit accrue for having freed the slaves? It was the evangelicals in the Church of England who did so much to abolish slavery. Does this institutional self-deprivation have no financial implications to set alongside earlier profits? If not, why not?
Then there's the 1833 Slavery Abolition Act. To pay for the ending of slavery,
the government of the day borrowed £20 million to buy the freedom of those
currently enslaved (multiply by 100 for today’s worth). This was a national
loan that we funded by our taxes. In fact we only finished paying this off in 2015.
It also ignores the
historical fact that it was largely Africans selling other Africans into slavery
that fed the unspeakably cruel slave trade in the first place. Why are they
exempt from any moral or financial calculation if such calculations are being
constructed?
The theological
and philosophical questions are more interesting.
Slavery was ubiquitous.
It has been practised throughout history. It persists today. In the arena of
European history, something like 1.4 million white Europeans were captured by
Barbary pirates from North Africa and sold into slavery there and in the
Islamic Ottoman Empire. Why is there is no reciprocal
call for compensation from the mosques of North Africa to the white European
descendants of those victims of the African indigenous slave trade.
Why is the African-American context
different?
There are two reasons. The first is that the wounds of slavery in American have not been healed and the UK has soaked up American culture, absorbing and digesting it in a way that our non-English speaking European neighbours have been free from. Partly through the power of social and public media, we are living a kind of proxy American cultural life here, with proxy American values.
The emotive power of American cultural preoccupations has reached these shores. The progressive political philosophy that drives American culture has two ingredients in particular that affect us. One is that the “victim” is always right; and secondly, the collective takes priority over the personal.
This collectivism
is a derivation of Marxist preoccupations and ought to be resisted by
Christian theologians rather than be adopted and affirmed. It must be of some
note that in Jeremiah we find a trajectory of theological development that
moves from replacing collective guilt to the responsibility of the individual.
The people of the First Covenant were initially warned than the consequences of
sin would flow down the generations. But subsequently Jeremiah (31.29)
prophesied that “in those days they shall say no more: the fathers have eaten
sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”. Collectivist identity
and guilt down the generations was to be replaced by personal accountability
before the living God. We don’t do generational guilt any more. It’s not part
of our moral Christian code.
This is no small
thing. It is one of the central defining differences between political utopian
movements of the Left and Christianity. We abjure identity politics because
they diminish and eradicate the value and the responsibility of the individual
soul. We repudiate attributing guilt across the generations. To adopt a
cultural movement that replaces the individual with the collective, capable of
being applied inter-generationally, is a serious theological error, and will
have dark political consequences.
Only by adopting
this American ideology of victimhood steeped in collectivism do we find the
rational to reconfigure not issues only personal guilt but re-formulate new
economic liabilities that transcend the centuries without definition or
limit.
There is a
Christian response to historic slavery. It is one rooted in the spiritual
experience of moving from the slavery of sin to the intimacy of adoption in the
Godhead. It is one nurtured by individual forgiveness. It has no direct
economic cash evaluation. It cannot be expressed in monetary terms.
And what about the Catholic Church?
If the
Archbishop of Canterbury has become so convinced that an American ideology of
collectivism and victimhood should drive reparations the C of E has a moral
imperative to put right, then Catholics are next in the queue.
The English state
destroyed the Catholic monasteries and robbed them of their resources, while
confiscating all their churches to turn them into centres of
Protestantism. It profited to the tune of £1.3 million pounds in the
mid-16th Century. This would have an equivalent today of about £500
million.
In the hope that
Justin Welby’s conscience is not driven by racist criteria of victimhood only,
but is willing to be even-handed in responding to the victimhood of whites as
well as blacks, can Cardinal Nichols expect a cheque for £500 million? If we
can’t have our monasteries back, we would like the ill-gotten proceeds of state
robbery.
And while we are at it, the keys to our cathedrals too please.
It's very easy to make reparations with someone else's money. I hope this finally motivates people to stop giving money to dioceses to fund these endless virtue signalling projects.
ReplyDeleteOn a different note, Harry confirms Chesterton's dictum “When a man stops believing in God,, he doesn't then believe in nothing, he believes anything".
ReplyDeleteThe man who says he met his mother through a Cheetah or some cat or other, says he isn't religious.
Maybe not, but he's certainly credulous.
It doesn't seem to occur to the none too astute Prince that if his mother is happy where she is she will not want to be expending the massive energy it takes to go back and forth between this life and the next to be appearing in various weird forms to utter trivial, and sometimes unkind things like laughing at broken Christmas baubles of the RF.
DeleteIf he is encountering anything it is more likely to be evil spirits pretending to be his mother, as he has opened various portals to the occult through drugs, drink and mediums. Well either that or mad Meghan pretending to channel his mother. All gross and ghastly, and he needs to get a life, get on with things, and seek spiritual wisdom only through Christ.
He emotionally and damaged and, consequently, open spiritually to all sorts of influences. Megan, an actress, albeit not a very good one, has sufficient skill to manipulate him. Hopefully, through the grace of God, he'll recover.
DeleteAgreed. The man also has a noticeable bump on the forehead, and has had for a few years, which may indicate some kind of damage which may well alter behaviour. Maybe a polo accident, similar to Henry Vlll's jousting accident which made him more intemperate.
DeleteTell you what, and this would be a better and more just way of the CofE spending the Queen's Anne bounty, give it to the government. If the Church has so much spare cash, it should start paying tax.
ReplyDeleteBetter than funding the RCC'S Sex abuse compensation fund!
Harry confirms Chesterton's dictum...
DeleteHarry is an extremely lost young man, led around by the nose by bad faith actors. It's a tragedy to see self destruction played out in public. Shame on the media for fanning the flames by continually giving him publicity and encouraging the gossiping masses to buy his book.
If the Church has so much spare cash, it should start paying tax.
If the CofE wants to act like a political pressure group instead of a church, it should lose its tax exemption.
Or it could give that £100 mil. to help people who are actually in slavery now, instead of three centuries ago. Such aa all those people being trafficked into the UK and held hostage by criminal gangs, thanks to the weak border policies that Welby's so keen on supporting.
Now, now, Prof G, that comment by Gavin Ashenden was irony.
DeleteAs was mine. Mainly 😈
DeleteWith apologies for going off topic so early in the thread, but there's an interesting follow-up to the Bishop of Worcester's open letter about homosexuality and the C of E. The Psephizo blogger Ian Paul has posted a very full reply addressed to the bishop, and in the comments thread underneath it, Anton has added some further points of his own.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.psephizo.com/sexuality-2/an-open-letter-to-john-inge-bishop-of-worcester-on-sexuality-and-marriage/
That's a much more thorough response than Inge's letter deserves, IMO, but it will ultimately make no difference; the die is cast. No amount of logic or reasoning in the world can overcome the 'let's be nice' trump card. And if that's where the CofE thinks it's being led, let them get on with it and see.
DeleteThis is, of course, what happens when you have 'what I think scripture says' as your ultimate authority: amazing amounts of ink and pixels being spilt over an issue that was decided thousands of years ago. The answer should simply be, as St. Paul puts it, that 'the churches of God have no other practice.'
I'm surprised to see Anton still taking the time to comment so extensively on the goings on of the CofE. I thought that he would be busy setting up his own church.
Thank you for the 'heads up' Ray. This subject really warrants a separate article but feel free to discuss it here.
DeleteJack thought the best comment there was by a person calling himself 'Happy Jack'!
DeleteIt was a good comment, but was it the 'best'? 🤔
DeleteI like the argument in the comments that it's ok to change church teaching on marriage because they changed it on women's ordination. Error built upon error.
Of course it was!
DeleteIt's where the Orthodox Church are slipping. If something is intrinsically evil or morally disordered, e.g., artificial contraception, because it contradicts God's design for the use of our sexuality, then it cannot be approved even privately for pastoral reasons.
The Orthodox Church recognises that life can't always be codified into black and white rules. What are a couple to do if, for example, the wife is told that her life is in danger if she becomes pregnant again? Are they to abstain from sex for the rest of their lives (contrary to St. Paul's teachings and risking adultery), or run the risk of her dying if NFP fails?
DeleteGavin Ashenden has the appropriate historical perspective, as one has rather come to expect. Welby is still a fool.
ReplyDeleteThere appears to be a thing that I shall hereby (probably inadvisedly) call "guilt p*rn". An English friend of mine is going to India, to the Punjab. "Why there?" I asked. "Ohh, to visit the scene of British attrocities!!" I referred her to the Blue Star Operation, which occurred in exactly the same place, much more recently, with Indians killing (many more) Indians, but I'm not sure this was of any interest to her.
£500M sees a surprising small amount of money - small change for e.g. The Vatican. Can you have the keys to your cathedrals back? Recompensate the Huguenots, the Waldensians, the inhabitants of Constantinople, etc, and then we'll talk! (Actually, I'd probably be in favour, after the CofE has finally been put out of its misery).
Ohh, to visit the scene of British attrocities!!
DeleteThat's horrible. She'll probably go on to tweet virtuously about it on her iPhone that's come out of factories where the working conditions are so bad that Chinese workers are commuting suicide.
Quite.
DeleteRay ....I read the Bishop of Worcester's letter...I am rarely lost for words but on this occasion all I can say that if he genuinely believes what he is writing then he is in big trouble. I feel sorry for the remaining few C of E congregants who must rile against this lunacy. Although we have fruit cakes too. The other day I witnessed an eminent Catholic theologian who had been a priest for thirty years uttering heresy on tv commenting on Cardinal Pell. Why is this guy still employed at a Catholic university I ask?
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that the Catholic Church has lost its confidence in applying disciplinary measures to people such as that. It needs a thorough sweeping clean; particularly in its academic institutions. Most Catholic schools and universities shouldn't be allowed to call themselves Catholic, from what I've seen.
DeleteI skipped a line in reading Cressida's comment and read 'then he is in big lunacy.' Despite being a reading error I think it was somewhat apt. I pray that these woke Bishops may have such an experience of God's glory that they step back, with awe and wonder, humility, and obedience from their worst follies.
DeleteThere are far too many conferences, talking shops and emotive victim statements and far too little serious listening and encounter with the Living God.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/paul-collins-remembers-george-pell/101846608
ReplyDeleteThis is the video clip ...Paul Collins is an eminent Australian Catholic theologian and author. I know...he could be mistaken for a Protestant. This interview upset me.I wonder just how many Catholics are like him
The man resigned from the priesthood to avoid censure by the CDF over his book that questioned the position of the papacy, and he's now writing in praise of birth control and depopulation. It's very disingenuous for the media to pass him off as a Catholic.
DeleteRegrettably, all too many Catholics these days are like this guy. His fellow Australian, Lyndal Roper, a world-acknowledged authority on the life of Martin Luther, once pointed out that Luther wrote almost nothing in his voluminous writings about the afterlife. Pretty much everything was about the Church in THIS world. This is what Catholics mean when they talk about Protestantism being the antechamber of atheism. NO. SUPERNATURAL. FAITH.
Delete@Bell,
DeleteProtestants have no supernatural faith? What total b*ll*x. You really want to make Happy Jack's blog that sectarian?
And on the other hand, you have those who dismiss this world entirely and view Christianity simply as an escape pod to the next life; many of whom numbered among Cranmer's commenters. This is also a lack of supernatural faith, which relegates God from the sphere of human activity and tucks him safely away in an imagined heaven somewhere beyond the clouds.
DeleteThis allows one to ignore gospel imperatives, and treat one's fellow humans however one wishes - stand on the faces of the poor to advance one's own material comfort, exterminate children to protect one's own national interests and so on, since God doesn't really care about what goes on down here.
OK, OK, bad choice of words. Firstly, the antechamber is still in the house, which means Protestants CAN (and, I'll admit, often do) have supernatural faith. I'm just saying it's easier to pass out of the house through the antechamber than directly from the living room. The "antechamber", for this purpose, is the notion that what matters is this life. Very often (and no, I'm not saying "invariably", just "often") people lacking supernatural faith find it convenient to pass from faith, to humanism and finally to atheism by taking a short sojourn in the antechamber. And yes, I'll concede the opposite heresy (for want of a better word) is an inappropriate fixation on the next life. The trick is to balance the two things, this world and the next. If you can't do that, you're like a one-eyed man. Yes, you can see pretty much everything around you, but you have no depth perception, and that can happen whichever of the two eyes you're missing.
Delete#Bell,
DeleteI appreciate you replying in this fashion and you make some interesting comments.
I totally agree that a lack supernatural faith can make passing from faith to humanism straightforward - seen it happen.
So, the antechamber "is the notion that what matters is this life", presumably to the exclusion of thinking that the next life matters, and that's where Protestants are - still in 'the house' but not in the 'living room'. No
sorry, I don't agree. Try e.g. the hymns of the Victorian-era revivalist Fanny Crosby if you don't believe that Protestants think about the afterlife. And we still sing them.
The whole "compensation for the descendants of..." thing is such an obvious grift. No one can seriously believe in it except people who've lost all confidence in their own civilizational inheritance. Lost their faith, in other words. Not a good look in a major Christian leader, is it?
ReplyDeleteJack assumes incorrectly. Vatican II changed no doctrine of the Church. Doctrines cannot be changed anyway. How those doctrines have been presented and interpreted, however, is another matter. The Novus Ordo mass, to take one example, was not sanctioned by the council. What was sanctioned was a mass which I have only ever seen practiced on one occasion in almost sixty years. That mass was reverent and quite similar to the extraordinary form, but under the banner of reform and modernisation, what was sanctioned was simply ignored and the NO foisted upon the faithful by people who just knew better. My wife, an Anglican, informs me that the NO is almost indistinguishable from the Anglican rite. Indeed, on those occasions when I have attended Church of England services with her I have been hard put to spot the difference.
DeleteBeyond liturgy, I'm also wondering how Amoris Laetitia is supposed to work. Is the Church now accepting divorce and remarriage? If it is, when did we start changing doctrine? How about the death penalty? Any advice on how we explain away all those thousands of death warrants on rapists and murderers signed by various popes back when the Papal States were still a thing and the Vatican still had an official executioner on the payroll?
"My wife, an Anglican, informs me that the NO is almost indistinguishable from the Anglican rite. Indeed, on those occasions when I have attended Church of England services with her I have been hard put to spot the difference."
DeleteWell, that rather depends on which branch of Anglicanism you attended. Some Anglo-Catholic clerics use the Roman rite - some don't. One needs to listen to words used by the celebrant. The actual structure of the Mass hasn't changed - at all. Jack is comfortable attending both forms and, indeed, finds that the Ordinary Form can be very intimate. In both the Extraordinary and Ordinary form it depends on the celebrant.
Amoris Laetitia simply recognised th distinction between 'objective' and 'subjective' sin and culpability. One footnote has been focused on and. Jack grants, it is problematic but not enough to run to hills screaming "heretic!", "heretic!"
The death imposition of the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgement by the State and its right the Church has a spiritual say in this. In fact, there have been periods in the early Church when Christians did not support its use. Again, too much is being made of this. Societies change, cultures change and criminal justice systems change. What the Vatican States did or didn't do is irrelevant. We don't advocate burning or torturing 'heretics' anymore.
Jack, this is the Church of England's standard Eucharistic liturgy (Order One is the default). Anyone attending a CofE Eucharist that uses this liturgy as prescribed would be familiar with an NO Mass and vice versa (liturgical actions such as genuflecting aside). That's not to say that the NO isn't fully Catholic, but you have to work much harder at it to draw out certain fundamental truths (I.e. the real presence) than you do with the TLM.
DeleteNot if you understand the Mass and follow what's going on, you don't. This failure existed with the Latin Mass too.
DeleteThe Ordinariate use the BCP suitably amended to restore its sacrificial nature of Christ present, before Cranmer stripped the service of this. And some Anglo-Catholics use the Roman Missal.
Personally, Jack is in favour of masses in the vernacular and has often wondered why the Tridentine rite wasn't just translated into English.
Yes, if you understand it already, hence my final sentence. But many do not, because catechesis finishes at confirmation, if you're lucky. The liturgy can be catechetical in itself, and I think this element is missing in the NO: if I didn't know that Christ was truly present in the host and chalice, there's nothing that intrinsically communicates this. Celebration versus populum suggests that the priest is offering something to me, as a spectator, instead of to God along with me and on my behalf. Unless I know differently, of course.
DeleteThe OC favours the Liturgy in the vernacular, too. I don't understand why the TM wasn't simply translated, either. It seems the most elegant solution.
I'm not keen on the Ordinariate Missal. The BCP is a text forged in the fires of violent anti-Catholic hatred, and it's beyond me why anyone would want to rehabilitate it. It's also completely foreign to mainstream Catholics.
Anglo-Catholics using the Roman Missal are almost certainly doing so unlawfully. Canon Law (Section B) requires that ministers use only the forms of worship prescribed by the said Canon (i.e. Common Worship and the BCP), and prohibits the use of any form of service 'contrary to, [or] indicative of any departure from, the doctrine of the Church of England in any essential matter'.
@Bell, as you must know, simply by doing something, the Vatican doesn't make the wrong, right.
DeleteFrom what I'm being told is going on in the Vatican today, I'm sure you can see the flaw in that.
QQ qq
@ Lain
DeleteBut how may Catholics attending the Latin Mass knew what was going on? It was the teaching and Catholic networks that made the difference - not the liturgy. There was good reason for Fr Ratzinger, as early as 1959, to say many Catholics were pagan.
As Jack understands it, the BCP was plagiarised from Catholic texts and the Eucharist service from the Sarum Rite - an ancient English liturgy.- and stripped of their Catholic. essence. The Ordinariate services are very spiritual..
I think the TLM makes it clear that something special is going on. It's choreographed that way: for people, most of whom wouldn't have spoken Latin, to watch from a distance. Bell is right, it is hard to tell the difference between a NO Mass and a middle-of-the-road/high Anglican service: and this is a service designed to be used by a spectrum of people from those who believe in transubstantiation to those who believe that the Eucharist is simply a nice reconstruction.
DeleteThe BCP gathered and eviscerated multiple Catholic sources. I find its claim to be 'restoring' Sarum very specious. The Sarum Use (it was a library of different books) was simply the variant of the Roman Rite popular in the SE of England at the time. The Ordinariate Rite, as far as I can see, is virtually identical to the BCP with genuflecting and some extra prayers added. Its penetential prayers are still highly Calvinistic, as is the 'prayer of humble access', which, as far as I know, was invented by Cranmer splicing together various sources. What is one of the most celebrated prayers of one of history's most celebrated anti-Catholics doing in a Catholic missal? In contrast, the
Eucharistic rite of the Sarum Use was basically the same as the Extraordinary Form (and would have been in Latin), as were all medieval liturgies. The Ordinariate Mass has no resemblance to the Sarum Use at all.
Well. that told Happy Jack!
DeleteThe penitential prayer doesn't strike Jack as Calvinistic. You'll need to explain on that. And the 'prayer of humble access', no matter its author, is very appropriate.
The prayer of humble access, like the rest of the BCP, was written by Cranmer to emphasise his belief in justification by faith alone, i.e., it denies that we 'miserable offenders' cooperate in our salvation at all - thus 'trusting not in our own righteousness' is a specific rejection of Cranmer's warped view of Catholic doctrine. In any event, I don't understand why one would want to include in the Mass (the height of Catholic worship) a prayer written by a man who was instrumental in inflicting untold suffering and persecution on English Catholics and in tearing England away from Rome.
DeleteIronically, very few Anglo-Catholics use the BCP as Anglicans, since it's so opposed to Catholic doctrine. Instead, they use either the Roman Missal or dress up Common Worship to look like an NO Mass. Ordinariate priests are bizarrely preserving their 'Anglican patrimony' by using a prayer book as Catholics that they wouldn't have touched as Anglicans. Which raises the question of what exactly the point of it all is, except to move Anglo-Catholics from being a walled-off ghetto within Anglicanism to being a walled-off ghetto within Catholicism.
Unlike Eastern Catholics, who retained the Divine Liturgy and Eastern disciplines and practices (which raises a whole host of other questions), the Ordinariate uses a fantasy hybrid of the BCP served like a Tridentine High Mass, which exists neither within Anglicanism nor Catholicism. That those parishes that can afford it sometimes have a choir to preserve the 'Anglican choral tradition' seems to be a weak argument for a separate jurisdiction to me.
Yes, but what is specifically Calvinistic about the prayers you've cited?
DeleteAs for the rest, God uses who He uses. Cranmer was a tortured tool used by Henry XVIII and influential Cardinals. So what if he wrote the prayers? if the Ordinariate facilitates Anglo-Catholic reuniting with the Catholic Church then that's a good thing.
The rite used is a sacrificial re-presentation of Christ's body, blood, soul and diviinity by the priest and participants to the Father. That's what matters.
Because it views sinners as vessel of God's wrath begging a wrathful God for a reprieve from their just destruction.
DeleteThat's one reading; on another, perhaps more convincing one, Cranmer was one of the most influential architects dripping venom into Henry's ear and using the king's libido to facilitate Cranmer's own religious reforms. If a particularly nice prayer by, say, Aleister Crowley or Jimmy Saville cropped up, would it be OK to include that in the Mass, too?
I think it's debatable whether the Ordinariate facilitates reunion with Catholic Church. In practice, I think it's facilitated an Anglican ghetto within the Catholic Church - instead of Anglo-Catholicism you have Catholic-Anglicanism (if one remembers that the origins of the so-called Anglican patrimony is, essentially, the Roman Catholic Church, then the BCP mishmash makes even less sense). Those Anglicans I know who were balanced and thoughtful and loved the Catholic Church became diocesan Catholics; those who were bitter and angry and hated the CofE (and were borderline misogynists, one might venture) became Ordinariate Catholics. If one looks at the Ordinarite's official Portal magazine, there's still an unhealthy and condescending attachment to what's going on in the CofE. It reminds me of Onoda Hiroo.
If the Ordinariate Rite is a sacrifical representation of Christ's sacrifice in which he is truly present, then so is the BCP Eucharist; which would be news to Cranmer who wrote it specifically to deny such 'Romish abuses'!
Just where does the Penitential prayer view sinners as "vessel of God's wrath begging a wrathful God for a reprieve from their just destruction"?
DeleteIt rightly states:
"We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness, which we from time to time most grievously have committed, by thought, word, and deed, against thy divine majesty, provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us.
We do earnestly repent, and are heartily sorry for these our misdoings; the remembrance of them is grievous unto us, the burden of them is intolerable."
Is God's wrath (i.e., consequences for sin) not a part of Orthodox teaching?
It then moves on:
"Have mercy upon us, have mercy upon us, most merciful Father; for thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, forgive us all that is past; and grant that we may ever hereafter serve and please thee in newness of life, to the honour and glory of thy Name; through Jesus Christ our Lord."
All perfectly Catholic.
"Cranmer was one of the most influential architects dripping venom into Henry's ear and using the king's libido to facilitate Cranmer's own religious reforms."
It was Anne Boleyn, her family, and other actors at court doing that - not Cranmer. He was something of a stooge.
It's not for Jack to judge the members of the Ordinariate. All he knows is that the services he attends are always very devote.
Just where does the Penitential prayer...
DeleteIn the context of the BCP and the stated doctrines of the author, this is clearly how 'provoking thy wrath and judgement' is intended. One cannot view slices of liturgy in isolation. Here is a perfectly Christian prayer for example: 'O Lord! We believe: then do thou forgive us and have mercy upon us, for thou art the greatest of those who show mercy'. Yet it is from the Quran.
Is God's wrath (i.e., consequences for sin) not a part of Orthodox teaching?
Not in remotely the same way. The wrath described here, filtered through medieval feudalism, is a capricious passion that God cannot possess (1 Jn. 1:5). In Orthodoxy, God is not wrathful, he 'is good and the lover of men'. His uncreated divine energia shines on us all: to the holy, it is experienced as 'grace', to the wicked, as 'wrath'.
St. Maximos the Confessor wrote: 'God, it is said, is the Sun of righteousness (cf. Mal. 4:2), and the rays of His supernal goodness shine down on all men alike. The soul is wax if it cleaves to God, but clay if it cleaves to matter. Which it does depends upon its own will and purpose. Clay hardens in the sun, while wax grows soft. Similarly, every soul that, despite God’s admonitions, deliberately cleaves to the material world, hardens like clay and drives itself to destruction, just as Pharaoh did (cf. Exod. 7:13). But every soul that cleaves to God is softened like wax and, receiving the impress and stamp of divine realities, it becomes “in spirit the dwelling-place of God” (Eph. 2:22).'
It is not God's 'wrath' that leads to destruction, but our inability to accept his love. As St. Ambrose wrote, 'The wicked man is a punishment to himself, but the upright man is a grace to himself—and to either, whether good or bad, the reward of his deeds is paid in his own person.' We see an example of this when St. Peter tells Jesus to 'get away from me, for I am a sinful man'. He is aware of his own unworthiness because of his closeness to Christ's love, not because he is admonished by Christ's wrath (and Christ's response is 'do not be afraid').
Cranmer was something of a stooge.
A stooge who joined the 'Little Germany' group of Reformers in 1520, was praying for the abolition of papal power in England by 1525, enthusiastically drew up a case for Henry's divorce, lived in a secret marriage for 14 years, annulled Henry's marriage and legitimised his bigamous one, passionately promoted the doctrines of royal absolutism and the divine right of kings, threw himself behind Edward's reforms, produced the original 42 Articles that pushed the CofE towards Calvinism, wrote the BCP to strip religion of its 'Catholic superstitions' and supported Jane Grey as Edward'a successor?
'the reward of his deeds is paid in his own person.' The quote from St. Ambrose ends there, as should the italics 🙄
DeleteSo, no reference to man being "vessels of God's wrath".
DeleteThe Catholic view of God's wrath is no different to the Orthodox view - though different language is used.
The wrath of God is mentioned quite frequently in the New Testament: (John 3:36). (Rom 12:19), (Ephesians 5:6), (1 Thessalonians 5:9) and (Revelation 14:19).It is spoken of as already operative in certain people.
God’s wrath is His passion to set things right. We see this right at the beginning, in Genesis, when God cursed Satan and uttered the protoevangelium: "I will make you and the woman enemies ... one of her seed will crush your head while you strike at his heel." (Genesis 3:15). God is clearly angered at what sin has done to Adam and Eve, and He continues to have anger whenever He beholds sin and injustice. He has a passion for our holiness. All sins provoke His wrath; five most especially.
God has a wrathful indignation and a passion to set things right. This is part of His love for us. His wrath may be manifested through punishment, disturbance of our conscience, or simply by allowing us to experience the consequences of our sin. God’s wrath is not like our anger. God is not angry in the way that we are. It cannot pertain to God to have temper tantrums. The way God experiences anger is not something we can fully understand. Scripture is clear that God does not change. Hence, God’s wrath does not represent Him suddenly getting angry. He is not variable.
God’s wrath is our experience of the total incompatibility of our sinful state before the Holiness of God. Sin and God’s holiness cannot coexist. This is God’s wrath: the complete incompatibility of two things, sin and His utter holiness. We must be purified before entering His presence, otherwise we could not tolerate His glory. Wrath is the conflict between our sin and God’s holiness. God cannot and will not change, so we must be changed or else we will experience wrath.
The primary location of God’s wrath is not in Him; it is in us. God does not change; He is holy and serene; He is love. If we experience His wrath it is on account of us, not Him.
It is we who change, not God, and this causes wrath to be experienced or not.
Jack isn't a fan or apologist for Cranmer - just saying the Penitential of Prayer Ordinariate rite is perfectly Catholic!
So, no reference to man being "vessels of God's wrath".
DeleteCranmer was a Calvinist. The BCP is Calvinist. It was written to steer the CofE in a Calvinist direction. Sure, it's possible to squint at individual lines in isolation and optimistically say that they aren't, but that's (appropriately) a very Protestant way of handling a text. It isn't just a prayer that's been adopted, but the whole liturgy.
The wrath of God is mentioned quite frequently in the New Testament.
Yes, I'm familiar from my encounters with the Antonine god. But we aren't Sola Scripturaists or biblical literalists. God is not a man that he should have passions (Num. 23:19), so we cannot interpret anthropomorphisms literally.
God has a wrathful indignation and a passion to set things right.
This is incompatible with the idea that God doesn't change. Your following paragraph is correct, but this one takes the metaphors too literally. Someone who can get angry or passionate is someone who can change and cannot be trusted. God's 'anger' is a metaphor for our inability to stand in the presence of holiness. Consider two people who rub a moisturising cream into their skin. One has an allergic reaction and experiences agony. The other blissfully enjoys its cool, calming balm. Yet they have both experienced the same cream; it would be senseless to say that the cream was angry with the first person, although she may feel like she is subjected to wrath at the time.
Jack isn't a fan or apologist for Cranmer.
But he is happy for the works of a heretic written intentionally to promulgate heresy to be spoken at a Catholic Mass, and for his heretical liturgy to be used, virtually unchanged. What is the takeaway from the Ordinariate Use? That if one is in communion with Rome, then one's worship practices and liturgical unity are irrelevant? It's no wonder that devout adherents to the Latin Mass are (rightfully) peeved that the ancient Catholic rites of the Extraordinary Form (which is actually the true 'Anglican patrimony', found in the Sarum Use) are being suppressed, while Catholic Anglicans are happily permitted the use of Reformation texts.
"Cranmer was a Calvinist. The BCP is Calvinist. It was written to steer the CofE in a Calvinist direction."
DeleteWas he? If so, there'd be no bishops and no rituals. He was attempting to steer a course between Lutherans and Calvinists. The 39 Articles and the BCP offer different and ambiquous perspectives.
The heretical words have been removed from texts Cranmer essentially plagiarised; returned to their rightful expression.
Was he?
DeleteYes, he was.
Cranmer ... and all the Archbishops down to George Abbott (the predecessor of William Laud) were convinced Calvinists, including Bancroft whom some contend was an exception, as an Arminian, to the Lambeth rule.
Calvin himself describes Cranmer as a 'very distinguished Archbishop, deserving of my hearty reverence' for whom 'could I [Calvin] be of any service [to Cramer's endeavours], I would not grudge to cross even ten seas, if need were, on account of it', and for whom Calvin prayed that 'the Lord continue to guide you by his Spirit, and to bless your holy labours'.
The 39 Articles and the BCP offer different and ambiguous perspectives.
There's little ambiguity in 'Wherefore the sacrifices of Masses, in the which it was commonly said, that the Priest did offer Christ for the quick and the dead, to have remission of pain or guilt, were blasphemous fables, and dangerous deceits.' (XXXI) Strange choice when seeking an author for a Catholic Mass!
Cranmer didn't write the 39 Articles. He wrote the 13, then 42 Articles, which were later suppressed by Mary Tudor and went on to form the basis of the 39 Articles that Elizabeth I declared as foundational to the Church of England. Of the original 42, Article IX much more explicitly denies free will than does the revised version, which appears in the 39:
We have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God without the Grace of God by Christ preventing us that we may have a good will and working in us [NB. the Elizabethan version reads 'working with us'] when we have that will.
Article XX, 'of grace', was among those omitted from the Elizabethan revision, but says that God 'makes' the elect will to act in a godly fashion.
The Grace of Christ, or the Holy Ghost by him given, does take away the stony heart and gives a heart of flesh. Although those that have no will to good things, he makes them to will, and those that would evil things, he makes them not to will the same, he nevertheless enforces not the will. Therefore, no man, when he sins, can excuse himself as not worthy to be blamed or condemned by alleging that he sinned unwillingly or by compulsion.
In the extant Article XVII, on predestination and election, there are evident Calvinistic overtones in the assertion that those predestined to election are 'vessels made to honour' (thus those predestined to damnation are 'vessels made to dishonour', Rom. 9:21-22 - the Calvinist's darling verse), who obey their 'calling' to election only 'by grace'.
The heretical words have been removed...
Which ones? It seems to me rather that Roman prayers have been shoehorned into a more or less intact BCP liturgy, and a brief comparison of the rites shows that passing the Ordinariate Use off as a restoration of pre-Reformation English Catholic texts is tenuous. The Extraordinary Form is much, much closer to the Sarum Use.
BELL...I just watched and interview PELL VS UREN (Leader of the Jesuits ) on CONTRACEPTION AND WOMENS ORDINATION. It was a very old interview and I was surprised to learn how progressive (heretical) Catholic leaders were even back then. Peter Singer a non Catholic moral philosopher who is a proponent of having sex with dogs to alleviate sadness and stress was given an over represented voice as well..Bell...I think you may be right about Catholics....they say it's our Church....we are not leaving....make the changes, which means they have no idea of Catholic doctrine at all....Do you think authentic Catholics are in a minority, even a small minority. There is no way of knowing is there? At least we have been promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against us....but it looks a bit tricky at the moment.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if "authentic" Catholics are in a minority. Much depends on how you define "authentic". What I would argue, however, is that authentic leadership is very much wanting. One of the things which distinguishes us from, say, the Orthodox is the long tradition of exactitude, the defining and extrapolation of doctrine and dogma, and the disciplines we've developed to reinforce the practice of those doctrines. It is not a Catholic thing to say, "it's all good". We don't do relativism. In Catholicism, there is ALWAYS a right answer, however hard that answer might be. The problem is that for the last fifty years, our leaders have not been defending those answers. They've been softening and watering them down in the name of ecumenism and in so doing, they've been -- however inadvertently -- destroying the uniqueness of the Faith.
DeleteSince I've been attending Latin mass, I've noticed two things. The first is that the congregation has been growing steadily and the second is that many of the newer arrivals are quite young. The thirst for the Faith is out there, but the hierarchy are not providing the sustenance. The faithful don't have shepherds. That's the problem. If they did, they'd return. Latin masses in themselves are not the answer, but Latin chaplaincies tend to create the mental discipline necessary to uphold the doctrines of the Church, regardless of the opinions of the outside world, and the opinions of the outside world seem to be the only ones the hierarchy are concerned about. Basically, the bishops do not have the faithful's back.
"The problem is that for the last fifty years, our leaders have not been defending those answers. They've been softening and watering them down in the name of ecumenism and in so doing, they've been -- however inadvertently -- destroying the uniqueness of the Faith."
DeleteJack assumes you're having a swipe at Vatican II here. Just what teachings have been 'softened' and 'watered down' in the name of ecumenism?
Thank you Bell for your reply.....I agree with what you said....Yes the right answers are sometimes hard ones and that is the problem because no one thinks they should be required to do anything that is hard. What I don't understand is if the hard answers are too unpalatable why not just leave the Church ...why try to enforce change which if doctrine is understood cannot happen...Why would anyone want to remain a Catholic if they cannot abide by or tolerate certain teachings? This applies to clergy as well.
DeleteThank you Lain for the info on Paul Collins....To be a theologian I think one would have to be a very cool calm and collected personality...for someone like me...it would be very bad for my health resulting in swear words, banging of fists on tables and maybe even some shattered glass....:)
ReplyDeleteEven the Lord chucked some furniture around...
DeleteContinuation.to Bell....Why are certain clergy who are flagrantly disregarding Catholic doctrine not removed from their positions? I heard a Catholic lawyer say that in one of those interviews. that his children had a right to grow up having a sound understanding and knowledge of Cathoicism and they were not getting that in the Catholic school or universities. This is just common sense..Why are these dissidents being tolerated. I think there is another agenda here
ReplyDeleteThe key to understanding what is going on is to realise that Catholic doctrine is supposed to be a reflection of God Himself, ie, timeless, eternal and immutable. Once it's in the magisterium, that's it. It cannot be changed. Now, if you don't have enough faith to follow that assumption to the end, what you get is situational ethics, dogmas which can be changed from one generation to the next. But how do you change what's supposed to be unchangeable? The answer is that you "massage" it, "interpret" it, or when necessary, simply ignore it. That's what's been going on for the last fifty years -- and no, Jack, I'm not blaming Vatican II; this was brewing for decades before then -- and in that vein, it's inevitable that a) dissidents are going to multiply and b) they're going to be allowed to multiply because many of those in authority want them to multiply. What we're getting is a new church (and note the lower case "c" here) being developed on the fly by people who think they know better than a two thousand year old magisterium. And it won't last because man-made things, however well built, never do.
DeleteWell, there you go then. Trust in the Holy Spirit and in the graces dispensed by the sacraments. And stay in communion with the pope and bishops. Dogma and doctrine develop, as does their presentation.
DeleteDoctrine develops, it doesn't chang. https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/08/pope-francis-and-capital-punishment
DeleteBy coincidence, the YouTube algorithm threw this up on my feed today. I've never run across this person before, but she's put the whole problem in a nutshell
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/TYTru3Yf4Vo
Really? Catholics are stopping believing in the one true presence, because they now stand up to take communion? That if they truly believed that this was Jesus they'd fall on their knees?
ReplyDeleteOr that by not having the presence placed directly on the tongue, they don't have the necessary reverence to believe?
I'm not saying any of these things are wrong, but I'd like to know if this lack of belief in the real presence applies equally across the Catholic world, or is it a bigger problem in the west, before I'd jump to any particular conclusion.
At the moment all I see is an individual who believes that what is important to them, should also be important to others. What is critical to their faith, should also be critical to other people's faith.
I think you're missing the point. She's referencing Pew research which shows that 70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence, and that's a problem. I'm aware that protestants don't share the Catholic view on this, but the point is not whether the host is the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Christ, it's that Catholicism teaches that it IS. If one doesn't believe that, what is the point in calling yourself Catholic? More pertinently, what are we supporting bishops for who either cannot or will not defend and advance this position?
Deletehttps://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/18/church-england-reportedly-refuse-back-change-allow-same-sex/
ReplyDeleteSeemingly the CofE Bishops are refusing to support change to allow same sex marriage.
I wonder.
I was under the impression that the Church made a thumping great loss out of its investment in the South Seas Company. The company never made a profit from slaving; only from a securities fraud in its latter years, which collapsed dramatically. If the Church Commissioners are to calculate a compensation fund based on their profit from an evil trade, it would come to a negative figure, so they should be demanding money back from the ghosts of the victims.
ReplyDelete