The Instructive Obscurity of Scripture and Doctrinal Development

As Christian churches face an onslaught by 'progressives' it is claimed those holding to traditional beliefs are failing to understand scripture correctly. They're 'old fashioned' and 'out of touch' with new sociological and historical insights. They need to read scripture differently. 

Two questions arises: Is scripture clear? and: Can doctrine change?

From The Catholic Thing


Perspicuity is not one of the five “solas” – sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, and soli deo gloria – that serve as the core doctrines of the Protestant Reformation. But it was affirmed by all the leading thinkers of the Reformation: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer. And, even if not regularly preached from the Protestant pulpit, it is the key that unlocks all the rest of Protestant doctrines …

 

Perspicuity, generally speaking, means that the Bible is clear, though there is not a single, agreed-upon Protestant definition of the doctrine. Some believe the Bible is clear as regards the “essential truths of the Christian faith:” others say it is clear in reference to the Gospel; and still others will say it is clear on just about everything.

Nevertheless, the most common definition of perspicuity is that offered by the Westminster Confession of Faith, a creedal document of English Presbyterians published in 1647. It reads:

 

All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all: yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.

 

In other words, the Bible is at least clear regarding what is necessary for salvation.

 

I first encountered this doctrine in college while reading the works of the prolific Reformed thinker R.C. Sproul. It made immediate sense to me: if we Protestants believe that Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith, then of course there must be some principle that makes it accessible to the individual Christian. Otherwise, we would be thrust back into a paradigm in which we would require recourse to some alternative, exterior authority. And wasn’t that exactly what the first generation of Reformers was repudiating in their rebellion against Rome?

 

Yet there was a dilemma: Protestants disagreed over just about everything, including what is necessary for salvation. Granted, this sometimes seemed like an easy problem to resolve. But some Protestant interpretations seemed contrary not only to the thinking of the early Reformers, but even natural law itself. My undergraduate course on St. Paul’s letters, for example, featured a book that featured pro-LGBTQ interpretations of St. Paul. That seemed highly implausible.

Other inter-Protestant debates, however, were a bit thornier. In my undergraduate religious studies course at the University of Virginia and then at my Calvinist seminary, I learned about something called the “New Perspective on Paul,” whose proponents questioned (if not openly attacked) the doctrine of sola fide as un-Biblical. As an ardent defender of sola fide, I didn’t particularly like NPP, but this was not some amateur, obviously politicized scholarly movement I could casually dismiss. Even N.T. Wright, an Anglican bishop and bastion of orthodox scholarship on such issues as the historical veracity of the resurrection, was in the NPP camp.

 

I tried to get to the bottom of the debate over the New Perspective on Paul. I read books representing both sides. I tried to learn Koine Greek in order to interpret Paul’s letters for myself. I spent quite literally years trying to acquire complete confidence that NPP scholars were wrong.

 

By the summer of 2010, I had reached an impasse. I was no closer to determining whether or not the NPP scholars were right or wrong about St. Paul (and, by extension, sola fide and the entire Protestant Reformation project). Scholars on both sides were better educated than I am, smarter than I am, and had thought much more deeply about St. Paul than I ever would.

 

Then, it dawned upon me. Wasn’t the whole point of Protestantism that the essential Biblical truths, those having to do with salvation, were clear, even to the uneducated Christian, as long as he or she approached the Scriptures in humility, and beseeched the Holy Spirit for aid? And yet here I was, knee-deep in sophisticated cultural, historical, and archaeological scholarship, not to mention muddling through the vernacular, in order to understand the supposedly “clear” Bible.

And I was just touching the surface. Calvinists disagree over whether or not babies should be baptized (Presbyterians say yes; Reformed Baptists say no). Luther and Zwingli had a very public (and very ugly) spat over the meaning of the Eucharist at the Marburg Colloquy. Weren’t baptism and the Eucharist also essential doctrines?  Indeed, according to some Christian traditions (ahem), they were doctrines essential to salvation.

 

For me, it was then that Protestantism collapsed upon itself as a coherent, intellectually defensible system. The Bible obviously wasn’t clear about what is necessary for salvation. Protestants didn’t just disagree with Catholics over this – they disagreed with each other.

 

But without perspicuity, the doctrine that enabled the individual Christian to make sense of the Bible, that same Christian would require recourse to some interpretive authority. I realized then that Protestantism was at its core individualistic. I was all on my own regarding the Bible’s meaning, free to decide what it meant, and what constituted authentic Christianity. And no longer could I pretend that I felt confident in doing so. What charge had Christ given me, Casey Chalk of Virginia, to exercise infallible authority over the interpretation of the Bible?

I knew one institution, however, that had at least a plausible claim to such an authority. It was the religious institution I had been originally raised in. That institution, the Catholic Church, had an extra-biblical, historical claim to interpretive authority, one I could evaluate without claiming to be the ultimate judge of the Bible’s meaning.

That same year, I studied its claims. By September 2010, I had made up my mind and returned to the Church of my youth. Clarity, I determined, wasn’t clear. But the Catholic Church, possessing divine approbation – something we can trust through what the Catechism calls “motives of credibility” – could tell me what the Bible truly meant. In faith, I trusted her motives of credibility. And I’ve never looked back.


This article is worth reading in full but these are the pertinent sections on the 'modern' challenges facing all Christian churches:


The Development of the Church’s Moral Doctrine

We have found that the doctrines concerning the biblical mysteries of faith, such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Eucharist, do not develop in the sense of acquiring more growth, but rather the Church’s understanding develops. However, within the Church’s doctrinal moral teaching there is, in a sense, a growth of the doctrines themselves that is achieved, again, by means of the Church’s fuller understanding. I will provide two examples. St. Paul takes for granted the slavery that existed at his time and which had been in existence for centuries (see Eph. 6:5–10; Col. 3:22–25; Philemon). However, as the Church grew in its understanding regarding the dignity of all men and women, it slowly became evermore convinced that the institution of slavery was immoral, and, thus, must be condemned as an iniquitous practice. While numerous popes eventually condemned it, its eradication was a slow process, and tragically slavery continues today in what is now referred to as “trafficking,” especially of young women. Presently, the Church is newly confronted with a multitude of “gender” issues. In addressing these concerns, the Church’s magisterium has had to stress that God created only two complementary sexes—male and female. Moreover, one cannot transition from one sex to another either mentally or physically, by bodily mutilation. Positively, the Church has articulated anew a Christian anthropology about the inherent goodness of men and women, and the natural and sacramental character of marriage being between one man and one woman. These illustrations make evident the constant growth in the Church’s moral teaching as it ever confronts new ethical issues. The foundational basis of every ecclesial response is the Bible itself. The application of the biblical doctrine develops, grows, and matures through the course of time. Moreover, we must note that the Church’s consistent and continual magisterial moral teaching cannot be reversed, a reversal espoused by Cardinal Jean-Claude Hollerich, Cardinal Robert McElroy, and the recent German Synod. For example, the infallible magisterial teaching condemning slavery, abortion, contraception, adultery, fornication, sodomy, and murder cannot be changed, nor declared to be moral under certain conditions and situations. What is intrinsically evil, as John Paul II stated in Veritatis Splendour, and Archbishop Charles Chaput reiterated in an article recently posted on this website, is always immoral in all circumstances, and therefore, under the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church does not have the authority to make such changes.

A Reunion of Doctrine and Scripture

The truths which doctrine embody are the realities into which Catholics are incorporated. Thus, all the members of the Church (clergy and laity alike) should lovingly contemplate the Church’s doctrines so as to immerse themselves within the realities of the faith. Doctrines are far from being irrelevant and esoteric. We must reject calls to cast off doctrine and instead treasure doctrine as a fuller understanding of truths revealed in Scripture. In beholding the doctrines of the Church, the only response the Church can give in word and deed is—“Amen, I believe!”

Comments

  1. Just a couple of weeks ago, in Budapest, Pope Francis said much the same thing about the need to keep up with the times, and he backed up his argument with a quote from the New Testament. He had been asked a question about the Latin Mass. He was speaking Italian, and he is reported (link below) to have described worshippers’ attachment to the older liturgy as indrietismo, here translated as “backwardness”. I don’t know enough Italian to be able to judge whether or not that’s the best translation, but this is the verse he quoted in support of his argument (in Italian and English). See what you think!

    First link: the CNA report on the Pope’s meeting with his fellow Jesuits in Budapest:
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/254268/pope-francis-says-traditional-latin-mass-was-being-used-in-an-ideological-way

    Two links to Bible Gateway, Hebrews 10:39 in Italian and English:
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ebrei+10%3A39&version=CEI
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10%3A39&version=ESV

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    1. Guess who's just weighed in on the that very subject

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3alw9BvEk

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    2. Thank you, @Bell. Suddenly it's all over the internet. Here it is in the Catholic Herald:
      https://catholicherald.co.uk/pope-cracked-down-on-latin-mass-to-halt-ideological-restorationism/

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    3. From the Catholic Herald:

      The Pontiff told a group of fellow Jesuits that he authorised the “rescript” that led to the cancellation of Old Rite Masses in churches throughout the world because of the rise of ideological “restorationism”.

      He said he considered the movement to be a form of indietrismo, an Italian word meaning “backwardness”, which he believed agitated against the reforms of the Second Vatican Council of the 1960s.

      Francis said the trend toward restorationism also ran counter to the intentions of Pope St John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI when they liberated the traditional form of the Latin Mass from restrictions imposed after the Council.

      Francis said: “The Council is still being applied. It takes a century for a Council to be assimilated, they say. And I know the resistance to its decrees is terrible.

      “There is incredible support for restorationism, what I call indietrismo, as the Letter to the Hebrews (10:39) says: ‘But we do not belong to those who shrink back’.

      “The flow of history and grace goes from the roots upward like the sap of a tree that bears fruit. But without this flow you remain a mummy. Going backwards does not preserve life, ever.” The Pope quoted the observation of St Vincent of Lérins who, he said, remarked that “the dogma of the Christian religion progresses, consolidating over the years, developing with time, deepening with age”.

      “But this is a change from the bottom up,” said Pope Francis. “The danger today is indietrismo, the reaction against the modern. It is a nostalgic disease.

      “This is why I decided that now the permission to celebrate according to the Roman Missal of 1962 is mandatory for all newly consecrated priests.

      “After all the necessary consultations, I decided this because I saw that the good pastoral measures put in place by John Paul II and Benedict XVI were being used in an ideological way, to go backward.

      “It was necessary to stop this indietrismo, which was not in the pastoral vision of my predecessors.”

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    4. That's a weird use of that verse. Heb. 10:39 is a warning against ὑποστολή - that is, going backwards in faith, apostatising - not against traditionalism or anti-modernism.

      That said, there are a schismatic sect of Russian Orthodox called the Old Believers, who split with the Church in the 17th century in protest at Patriarch Nikon's reforms, which sought to bring the Russian rites in line with the Greeks (something like the Eastern equivalent of sedevacantists). In other words, they undermined the unity of the Church to cling to a certain form of rites and practice. This is a kind of ritual belief akin to superstition, where salvation is dependant on an observing a certain external form of ritual.

      I can understand why Pope Francis wouldn't want something similar happening with the Latin Mass, which has become politicised by some as being the home of the 'faithful remnant'. However, I think this is largely a problem of his own making with his continued (and largely unprovoked) attacks on the 'traditional Catholic' bogeyman and ham-fisted blanket suppression of the EF.

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    5. Not "largely". It's ENTIRELY a problem of his own making. It's what happens when you demonise a single group. The good news is, he's still alive; it's not too late to walk it back.

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    6. People are responsible for their own actions. Just because one is being demonised, it's no excuse to act like a demon. Christ is our example of how to respond to persecution, but some seem to wish to follow a crucified Messiah without being crucified themselves.

      The majority of people who attend the TLM just want to go to Mass and find the traditional form more edifying for a variety of reasons. But there has always been a subset of Catholics with a superiority complex who seem to think that God only speaks Latin, and this has morphed into a growing minority of agitators who have politicised the Mass to serve this own agenda, just as they have even since they tried to set Paul against Apollos. Weaponising the Eucharist is blasphemous.

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    7. That's a weird use of that verse. Heb. 10:39 is a warning against ὑποστολή - that is, going backwards in faith, apostatising - not against traditionalism or anti-modernism.
      Thank you,@Lain. I'd been wondering about that.

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    8. @ Ray - I would have thought that there were far more appropriate examples in the epistles and Acts of the early Church having to let go of the past and embrace the new as it emerged from Judaism. St. Paul rebuking St. Peter at Antioch for backsliding and once again refusing to eat with Gentiles springs to mind, but perhaps the successor to St. Peter wouldn't be keen on using that example!

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    9. @Lain

      Do the few extremists weaponizing the TLM (assuming that's happening at all) justify the assault against it? Especially when the biggest single order of the Church (the Jesuits) have gone completely rogue and large sections elsewhere have left the reservation. Are the few wingnuts on the fringe of the TLM that big a threat when placed against these developments?

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    10. @Bell - I'm not without sympathy for how deeply this affects traditional Catholics, but at its heart, it all boils down to two questions:

      1. Was Vatican II a valid council of the Catholic Church with the power to decree that changes should be made to the liturgy of the Church?

      2. Does the Pope 'by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church [have] full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church.' (Lumen Gentium cf. Pastor aeternus, Vatican I )

      If the answer to these questions are no, then Catholics have every right to complain about the EF being suppressed ultra vires. But it also means that the foundations of Catholicism are not sound. If the answers are yes, then the Pope can do whatever he wishes with the liturgy, short of open heresy. The faithful may petition, of course, if they believe that the decision is in error, but fundamentally Roma locuta; causa finita est, whether you or I or anyone else agrees with it or not and the matter has to be eventually put to bed. The only other option is to do a Luther.

      Personally, I thank God that the Orthodox Church is too distracted and chronically disorganised to fiddle with the Liturgy, but if it ever did then one has to simply abide by the decision or go elsewhere. I love attending our English Liturgy, but if our bishop told us we could only celebrate in Greek, then we'd use Greek. I'm under obedience to my bishop in all things, not just the things I agree with and it's he - not I - who has to give account to God for his shepherding. As will Pope Francis for the way he's handled this furore, and as will the 'fringe wingnuts' who've wound it up.

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    11. @Lain
      1. Was Vatican II a valid council of the Catholic Church with the power to decree that changes should be made to the liturgy of the Church?

      I think it was, and furthermore I’d say it is beyond reasonable doubt that it was, for a reason that I can best explain as follows. If it wasn’t, then one or the other of two conjectural antecedent causes would account for that non-validity:

      Either (a) no ecumenical council, not even the very first one held at Nicea in 325, was ever empowered to enact rulings of that kind;
      Or (b) there are two kinds of councils, namely those that are so empowered and those that are not.

      If (a) is true, then there can never be any grounds for claiming that one liturgy is allowable while another is not. If, on the other hand, (b) is true, then that assertion itself will need to be substantiated. Where, when and by whom was the rule enacted that there are two such categories?

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    12. @ Lain and Ray

      Well said.

      Pope Francis' reaction - for good or ill - was based on 60 years of dispute about Vatican II between 'traditionalists' and [progressives' with the majority of Catholics wondering what on earth is going on. Before taking to blogging 10 years ago, HJ had no idea of the symbolism attached to the Latin Mass by some, or the different ways Vatican II was seen. One wonders what the faithful think in Africa, India and South America about all this!

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    13. @Ray - very well put.

      Some Orthodox would, of course, argue that (c) there have been no ecumenical councils after the Second Council of Nicaea in 787...

      But yes, from the Catholic viewpoint, Vatican II is either a valid council or one of your two objections obtain, which torpedoes the whole ship. We now have the curious position where 'traditionalists' are the ones shouting the loudest at non-Catholic Christians that they must reconcile with Rome and put themselves under the authority of the Pope, while at the same time doing their best to distance themselves from Rome and undermine that authority of the Pope.

      @ Jack

      I wonder the same with most of this. What must Christians who live in parts of the world with real problems think of the issues that get us heated in the West? I'm sure many would love to take a break from starving to death or being blown up by militants and discuss gender reforms and alteration to the liturgy.

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  2. A passage about scriptural perspicuity from a longer article on the role of historical scholarship in interesting Scripture.

    Perspicuity of Scripture. There is a type of popular Protestantism that confuses the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone is the highest authority for faith and morals), with the doctrine of Scripture’s sufficiency (Scripture alone is all we need to understand Scripture), and confuses both with the doctrine of Scripture’s perspicuity (the theory that the right understanding of Scripture is clear), and then confuses all of these with the idea that a reader can understand the intended meaning of any scriptural passage without historical knowledge of the period in which that passage was written. Some evangelical teachers have even gone as far as to suggest that historical work contextualizing Scripture’s original meaning is devaluing the Bible through threatening the doctrines of Scriptural authority, supremacy, and sufficiency. Although this ecosystem of misunderstanding is a deviation from what we find in the Protestant universities and seminaries, where doctrines like Sola Scriptura, sufficiency, and perspicuity are treated with nuance and complexity (sometimes even dying the death of a thousand qualifications), nevertheless on ground level a watered-down version of Scripture’s Perspicuity has had enormous reach, dispelling interest in Biblical scholarship. This misunderstanding of the doctrine of perspicuity fuels the notion that the plain meaning of Scripture is always apparent on the surface, thus creating space for a fundamentalist literalism.

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    1. I mean interpreting Scripture, not interesting Scripture (though it may well be).

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  3. What's this Doctrine of Perspicuity? First I've heard if it. The Bible is not necessarily clear, even with the aid of the Holy Spirit, as we are all human and with our own biases, plus it's inevitably written in human language rather than mathematical notation. We must intepret it as best we can, as we do everything else in life. To get get somebody else to interpret it for you is to outsource your thinking, you might get lucky you might not, but it need not be a bad thing, and this is where the simple yet sincere Christian can win out as his wisdom and humility will help him know who would interpret things well. On judgement day one will surely meet with God on one's own, so one might as well get used to owning one's beliefs as one's own.

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    1. The Bible is not necessarily clear, even with the aid of the Holy Spirit.

      If the Bible is not necessarily clear it's not sufficient for salvation (contra the Reformed position), and if Christ didn't establish, say, a Church to hand on Apostolic teachings (contra the Catholic and Orthodox positions), then the faith is unknowable and Christianity is simply a religion constructed in each believer's image. One must be true.

      To get get somebody else to interpret it for you is to outsource your thinking.

      Every time you pick up a translated Bible, you let someone else interpret it for you.

      Every time you look at a commentary, you let someone else interpret it for you.

      Every time you listen to your pastor, you let someone else interpret it for you.

      Everybody allows someone else to interpret the Bible for them. The question is whether it's a pastor and a preferred set of commentaries, or the accumulated knowledge of 2000 years' worth of Christian experience.

      Relatedly, I came across a very popular video on YouTube today by an American pastor entitled 'three things Jesus knew that you don't, which will change the way you read the Bible'. These, he had recently discovered, were: Jesus knew Jewish customs; Jesus knew Jewish idioms and Jesus knew Middle Eastern geography. In other words, Jesus was Jewish. This had apparently evaded this pastor despite him being seminary trained and having a fairly long ministry. So, choose wisely.

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    2. If the Bible is not necessarily clear it's not sufficient for salvation
      It's not sufficient for salvation. Even the Devil knows Scripture, but he interprets it falsely.

      "The Reformed position" may not necessarily be my position, BTW.

      Every time you ... X3
      That's kinda the point I'm making.

      2000 years' worth of Christian experience Absolutely - I personally have oceans of respect for what came before Protestantism. (However, those 2000 years do also take in all of Protestantism 😉)

      I imagine that every seminary training is rather skewed towards the predelictions of the organisation that is providing it.

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    3. The doctrine of perspicuity of scripture is central to Protestantism Christianity.

      Have a read of this and this:

      The Catholic Church does not teach that Scripture is so clear that every person will be able to interpret it in order to understand what is necessary for salvation, or even the “essentials” of the Faith. That doesn’t mean the Church disdains the Bible—indeed, Dei Verbum, a document of the Second Vatican Council, declares, “The books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted to put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.” The words of Scripture, the Catholic Church declares, contain teaching on what is necessary for salvation. The question, however, is who is able to authoritatively, definitively determine what that teaching is.

      In the Catholic - and Orthodox - tradition it is not individual Christians who possess the ability (or authority) to intuit the Bible’s meaning on salvation, but the magisterial authority of the Church or Ecumenical Councils.

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    4. @Gadjo - I wonder if we mean the same thing here, because I've never heard a Protestant deny the sufficiency of Scripture before. It's a central tenet of the Protestant faith. The 39 Articles has it that:

      HOLY Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the holy Scripture we do understand those Canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church. (VI)

      The Westminster Confession says:

      The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.

      Do you disagree with this? If all that is necessary for salvation can't be found in the Scriptures, then where can it be found? If your position isn't Reformed, or Catholic or Orthodox, then what is it?

      That's kinda the point I'm making.

      Your original point was that allowing someone to interpret the Bible for you was to 'outsource your thinking'. On this view, everyone 'outsources their thinking', either to the wisdom passed down from the early Church or to the predominantly historical-critical literary tradition of the 17th century onwards. As I've said before, the idea that Western Christians at 1700 years+ remove have a better grasp of a language they can't speak than first and second century Middle Eastern Christians did of their native tongue seems to me a nonstarter.

      However, those 2000 years do also take in all of Protestantism.

      With all due respect, they don't. The Reformers explicitly jettisoned that which went before them and started their own body of (often contradictory) traditions 500 years ago, which are incompatible with the vast majority of those of the historic Church. Although some Protestants are beginning to 'rediscover' things like Patristics, these cannot be understood without accepting that they lived and breathed a faith which the Reformers deemed heretical.

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    5. @HJ & 雲水,
      One lives and one learns: "(The doctrine of perspicuity of scripture) is a Protestant Christian position teaching that ...those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them."

      But to do your interlocutor the decency of not abstracting from his comments misleadingly, his original point was in fact that "to get somebody else to interpret (Scripture) for you is to outsource your thinking.... but *it need not be a bad thing*, and this is where *the simple yet sincere Christian can win out as his wisdom and humility will help him know who would interpret things well*. You have chosen the Orthodox Church, and I totally respect your decision, but I feel no obligation to do that.

      If your position isn't Reformed, or Catholic or Orthodox, then what is it?
      Well, I suppose you are hardly the first to forget our Oriental Church brothers or even pre-Reformation protestors like the Waldensians! Then there are those who consider the adult-baptisers their ancestors who wouldn't call themselves 'Reformed' as that implies other baggage. I'm more than happy to discuss any issue relating to Christianity. I repeat, on judgement day it is our individual hearts and lives that will be searched, I'm fairly sure

      With all due respect, to take one example, was Luther's repuduation of the doctrine of indulgences "incompatible with the vast majority of (the traditions of) the historic Church"?

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    6. the simple yet sincere Christian can win out as his wisdom and humility will help him know who would interpret things well

      This is a circular argument. It's the same as saying: because I speak Japanese, I'm able to know who can translate Japanese well. Just as I don't require a translator, one who is already full of humility and the wisdom of God has no need for an external interpreter. But how do they become full of humility and the wisdom of God? Surely nobody is born that way (Rom. 3:23). Isn't it through prayer and the study of Scripture? But if Scripture isn't sufficient and self-interpreting, who do they ask to interpret it for them? We are back to square one. It is indeed *a bad thing*, because it makes the Christian religion utterly subjective - one person feels in their wisdom and humility that the Catholic Church can interpret the Bible correctly, another feels that Joseph Smith got it right, and there is no ultimate authority to which to appeal apart from one's feelings which, as Scripture tells us repeatedly, can't be trusted.

      The Oriental Churches are non-Chalcedonian Orthodox churches: schismatic Orthodox, in other words. The Waldesians are Reformed; they aligned with the Calvinists under the Resolutions of Chanforan in 1532. Non-denominational independent 'Scripture alone' churches are Reformed, whether they like that label or not.

      was Luther's repuduation of the doctrine of indulgences "incompatible with the vast majority of (the traditions of) the historic Church"?

      Firstly, I didn't say that it was impossible to find a single Reformation teaching that is compatible with Church tradition, I said that they were incompatible with the vast majority of Tradition. Secondly, this illustrates the danger of isolating one teaching from a person's theological ecosystem. Initially, one has to ask which Luther, since his theology changed over time. Early Luther didn't repudiate indulgences per se, rather he (rightly) opposed their abuse, that is, the selling of indulgences; an illicit (or at best a murky and ambiguous) practice that the Catholic Church was turning a blind eye to at the time, and that Pius V later explicitly outlawed.

      In his 95 Theses, Luther confirmed that indulgences can be valid instruments for promoting spiritual gain, but that they were small gains:

      #67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the “greatest graces” are known to be truly such, insofar as they promote gain.
      #68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.


      The real target of this, however, was the pope, whom Luther felt had overstepped his authority - #81. This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult even for learned men to rescue the reverence which is due the pope from slander or from the shrewd questions of the laity. And, of course, later Luther rejected the authority of the Church altogether. This root is at odds with Tradition and explains why the Orthodox, for example, don't appropriate the parts of Luther's theology that we agree with (unlike the Protestant pastors who pinch quotes about the Bible from St. Jerome, ignoring his context), and why the Lutheran delegation was turned away when it approached the Patriarch.

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    7. It's not a circular argument at all! You don't need to understand every jot and tittle of Scripture to start being a Christian. Or how do you do evangelisation?

      I understand that the Oriental (non-Chalcedonian) Orthodox churches accept 3 ecumenical councils, the Orthodox 7, the Roman Catholics more than 20, etc; you takes your pick (and presumably gets called 'schismatic' by the rest). The Waldensians may have ended up being classed as 'Reformed' but originally they were protesting more about issues of church control than doctrine. My point is that the Christian world doesn't necessarily neatly divide into the 3 categories that you offer.

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    8. All 'Scripture alone' arguments are inherently circular: I interpret Scripture as saying X. My interpretation of X is correct, because it agrees with Scripture, which I interpret as saying X. It's like marking one's own homework.

      You don't need to understand every jot and tittle of Scripture to start being a Christian.

      The question here is not how one starts becomes a Christian, but how we interpret the Bible - although one point runs quickly into another. What does it mean to be a Christian? Lets aim for uncontentious ground and say that it means to believe in Christ. But believe what about Christ? That he's an exalted creature or that he's God? If he's God, how? What kind of God? Are there three gods or one? We've already hit huge stumbling blocks.

      And what does 'believing' mean? Do I just have to intellectually assent to Christ's historic existence? Do I have to believe every miracle he's said to have performed, or just the resurrection? What about the Old Testament? Do I have to believe that it's literally possible to influence the colouration of sheep and goats by having them mate in front of different arrangements of branches? And then what? Do I have to change my life? Is changing my life essential to working out my salvation, or a devilish doctrine of works repugnant to God? Pretty important questions. Where do we find the answers to these? On the Protestant view, it's the Bible and the Bible alone - and we're back to square one. Whose Bible? Whose interpretation of the Bible? Without the authority of the Church, all roads lead here, because they have to: when the Reformers placed the Bible (or, more accurately, what I believe the Bible says) as the highest source of Christian authority, there's nowhere else to go. This is why the doctrine of perspicuity was invented but, as it is untrue, under 'Scripture alone' Christianity and one's idea of God become completely subjective: exactly the situation we see in the Anglican and wider world today.

      The Waldensians opted to align with the Calvinists under the influence of Heinrich Bullinger. They weren't classed as Reformed, they willingly classed themselves that way. Evidence of their pre-Reformation beliefs are scant, but they were evidently ascetic Catholics who fell out with the Church over the authority of bishops and were declared heretical in the early 13th century.

      So there are three broad categories of Christian belief: there are those who follow the teachings of Orthodoxy and its schismatic offshoots; those who follow the Roman Catholic tradition and its schismatic offshoots, such as the sedevacantists; and those who follow Reformed Protestant teachings and its offshoots. If one places (one's understanding of) the Bible alone as one's ultimate source of authority, then one is following Reformed teachings.

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    9. I wasn't even making a 'Scripture only' argument. The Holy Spirit doesn't act as a guide? In my experience, yes. And absolute truth doesn't exist (at least on Christianity it does)? So, if one's faulty interpretation runs up against it then one is required to revise one's interpretation. Also, as I said in my original point, a sincere Christian will be humble and open to the wisdom of others. Or are you actually saying that one needs a priest always on hand to interpret every word?

      Regarding your third paragraph, you will have to believe what they tell you to believe, that is your 'square one'. However, I don't honestly think it's such as bad situation.

      Sorry, but I seem to evade your tripartite system of categorization. At risk of sounding cliched, the only label I really need is 'Christian'. I'll deal with each issue of theology as I come to it.

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    10. Your argument runs: if I'm humble and wise enough, I will know who is humble and wise enough to interpret the Bible for me, because in my wisdom I deem them wise. That is a circular argument. If the Bible is the standard by which Christians judge wisdom (1 Cor. 3:19-20), then it is a scripture alone argument and also a circular one.

      The Holy Spirit doesn't act as a guide?

      How do you know that it's the Holy Spirit guiding you? Because one's actions agree with one's reading of Scripture? This is circular again. It's not up to the individual to decide whether the Spirit is guiding them - it's up to the Church (1 Jn. 4). Anglicans who think that same sex marriage is a blessing believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding them. Anglicans who believe that same sex relationships are a mortal sin believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding them. Is the Holy Spirit really Loki?

      a sincere Christian will be humble and open to the wisdom of others

      All heresy is sincere, which is why people would rather die than recant. Many people are sincerely wrong, it's not a measure of anything. Is the person who thinks themselves the final arbiter of the meaning of God's word humble? (Cf. James 3:1; 1 Tim. 3:6; Matt 23 on the pitfalls of claiming that kind of authority).

      you will have to believe what they tell you to believe, that is your 'square one'. However, I don't honestly think it's such as bad situation

      We will have to disagree. I think passive, blind faith is cultish and dangerous.

      At risk of sounding cliched, the only label I really need is 'Christian'. I'll deal with each issue of theology as I come to it.

      Christianity is a communal religion, as was the Judaism from which it emerged - until that was excised from our collective understanding by later Christian antisemitism. Christianity knows nothing of 'I'; that's a very postmodern and particularly western world view. The NT describes Christians as one 'body' (Jn 17:21; 1 Cor. 12:27; Eph. 1:13, 2,22, 4:16; Rom 12:3-8) and as the 'people of God' (Heb. 4:9, 11:25, Rev. 21:3) - not as a collection of 'persons of God'.

      If you don't fit into any of those categories, are you denying that the Bible is the sole and highest source of Christian authority?

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    11. No, my argument doesn't run like that - you appear to be using 'humble' and 'wise' in an entirely contrarian manner! The former means that you would seek wisdom; the latter means having good judgement, not simply proclaiming something to be true.

      How does one know that it's the Holy Spirit guiding you? No, not because one's actions agree with one's reading of Scripture. For me it was a non-linguistic experience telling me of His love (which BTW encourages me to discount any theology which denies this for all people). You might as well ask how does one know when one is in love.

      I claim no authority whatsoever over God's word, and neither should anybody.

      Yes, ideally Christianity is a communal religion, although in a prison cell one would have to make the best of things.

      "Later Christian antisemitism"? I'm wondering what dates you have in mind - maybe we should ask some Jewish people.

      Christianity knows nothing of 'I'; that's a very postmodern and particularly western world view. Luke 23:42: "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." etc.

      I'm actually recorded on Cranmer as saying that I don't consider myself 100% sola scipture, out of respect for the early church fathers who compiled the canon and thrashed out key concepts such as the trinity, though I daresay nobody remembers. I'm not Roman Catholic or Orthodox because they both regard themselves as the single sole authority, and for other reasons. You wanna make me another category??

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    12. You keep telling me what your argument isn't, but have so far failed to tell me what it is. Where does this humility and wisdom come from if not from the Church, not from anyone else and not from the Bible? And what exactly is the point of the Bible in your view, since it's insufficient for salvation and apparently wisdom and humility are prior to it and accessible without it?

      For me it was a non-linguistic experience telling me of His love...

      And, again, how do you know that this was the Holy Spirit? Many people claim to have been visited by the Spirit, including that chap who popped up on Cranmer for a while with his weird blend of spiritualism and new ageism. A certain other regular Cranmerite believed that he had been tasked by the Spirit with restoring the churches to (his version of) the early church. And the pro-SSM groups and the anti-SSM groups. And the there was the Inspector... They can't all be right, what metric do we use to 'test the spirits'?

      The desert fathers were of the opinion that, should even an angel appear in one's cell, one should believe oneself unworthy of such a visitation and ignore it. My Abba's advice is consistent: heavenly experience in prayer - ignore it and keep on praying. Smell of burning flesh and sulphur during prayer - ignore it and keep on praying. 'For Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.'

      I claim no authority whatsoever over God's word, and neither should anybody.

      But you claim the authority to interpret and apply the Bible to each theological issue as it arises, do you not? Or do you have no opinion on matters of your own and others' salvation?

      "Later Christian antisemitism"? I'm wondering what dates you have in mind - maybe we should ask some Jewish people.

      As I said, after Christianity emerged from Judaism, specifically when Gentiles began to dominate the Church. Antisemitism was rife in pagan Greece and Rome from at least the 4th century BC (cf. the Egyptian pagan Manetho's writings, c.270 BC), and was further stoked by Antiochus Epiphanies' anti-Jewish edicts passed in response to the Maccabean revolt (2nd century BC). The occupying Roman Empire and the Jews did not, as we know, get on either (cf. the Jewish-Roman wars, c.AD 66-135). When the church converted Gentiles, predominantly from these areas, it's small wonder that they bought these sentiments with them and the Jewishness of Christianity was gradually erased. Shamefully, this has persisted to this day, with notable spikes in the Middle Ages (the expulsion from England in 1290, for example); the so-called Enlightenment era; Peter the Great's rabid antisemitism, Russian exclusionary policies and, later, pogroms; and in quite a straight line from Luther's ravings to the build up to Nazism, to name but a few.

      I'm not sure what the 'let's ask some Jews' thing is all about.

      Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." etc.

      And herein are the perils of self interpretation. Read the rest of the NT.

      I'm actually recorded on Cranmer as saying that I don't consider myself 100% sola scipture etc.

      Being less than 100% Sola Scriptura is the same as being 0% - Scripture alone but not alone is a contradiction in terms. Ok, so if you don't believe that authority lies in the Bible, and you don't that believe authority lies in the Church, and you don't believe that authority lies in the Fathers (because you've said that there's no guarantee that their teachings haven't been corrupted), and you don't believe that authority lies with you, then where does it lie? If I asked you 'what must I do to be saved?' where would you point me? (Not to the Bible, Church or Tradition, as if these have only partial or no authority, I don't need to listen to them),

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    14. You keep telling me what your argument isn't, but have so far failed to tell me what it is. Where does this humility and wisdom come from if not from the Church?
      Scripture explains what my argument is if you can't accept it from me:
      Cornelius was outside the church but had sufficient humility and wisdom to want to join the church, which he then did. Right? (I think you beieve in libertarian free will as much as I do.)

      But you claim the authority to interpret and apply the Bible to each theological issue as it arises, do you not?
      We all interpret the Bible, including you and the people you have chosen to tell you what the only acceptible interpretation of it is. Then we must apply it, as it is our guide, given to us by God, right?

      Or do you have no opinion on matters of your own and others' salvation?
      To be honest, I leave that entitely in God's hand. You?

      Being less than 100% Sola Scriptura is being X% Scriptura. To put, for example, the decisions of the fathers at the early church councils on an elevated level of divine inspiration, would be am interesting conversation me, it's a work in progress for me.

      But this is getting pointless. It's the weekend now and I've had a long and tiring week. All the best.

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    15. P.s. And as we're keen on 'circular arguments' here: You claim that wisdom and humility are only from the church. But Scripture says repeatedly - repent! -that these are the criteria for joining the church. You're gonna need Calvinism to get you out of that one.

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  4. Huge issues opened here. For the record, my position is this --

    1) Francis is the pope. He is not an anti-pope. The seat is not vacant.

    2) The Novus Ordo Mass is legitimate and I attend it and consider it valid.

    3) So is the TLM.

    4) Popes, when speaking ex-cathedra, are infallible.

    5) Popes, when speaking as men, are human.

    6) Vatican II is a legitimate council of the Church.

    7) Councils can be legitimate and still fail.

    8) Vatican II was legitimate and failed.

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    1. But if (1) is true, then does he not legitimately have the power to change (3), given that (2) is legitimately constituted as a replacement by (6)?

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    2. "Vatican II was legitimate and failed."

      Define 'success' and 'failure'.

      The goals of Vatican II were primarily pastoral - a response to a serious pastoral crisis, not a dogmatic one. The European nations were becoming a spiritual wasteland. Western Europe had been almost entirely lost. In the United States churches were full but vulnerable. The tidal wave of cultural revolution that rose in the early sixties and peaked in 1968 was washing a good deal of the Church away.

      The goal of the Council was to equip the Church to effectively re-evangelise the world through a compelling proclamation of Jesus Christ in a language that the world could understand. Division among Christians is a hindrance to this, hence the Council’s commitment to ecumenism.

      'Catholics in the pews' know Vatican II “changed the Mass.” Most know about the disappearance of Latin and the priest facing the people, but not much more. Yet, neither was mandated by the actual text of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. But many other things were. The issue at hand was not only the Mass but the entire liturgy, which includes all the public, official prayers of the Church. The Council wanted to renew every aspect of liturgical life: the Mass, all the sacraments, the Divine Office, the liturgical calendar, and the sacramentals or blessings of the Church as contained in the Roman Ritual. It wanted to assert the superiority of liturgical prayer over all other activities and once again make the entire liturgy the source and summit of Christian life. It wanted to restore a greater communal meaning and experience to all liturgical celebrations and encourage active, conscious participation of the laity in them. This active participation was the principle aim in the Council’s revisions.

      The Church has complete authority to structure the Mass and determine the language(s) used for Mass and all the sacraments. To say otherwise is to deny the authority of the Pope, the Church, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

      The exact form the Mass has never been doctrinal or universal throughout the history of the Church. It is a matter of discipline, and as such no Pope can be bound by a previous Pope.

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    3. @ Jack - would you think it fairer to say that the implementation of Vatican II has (partially) failed, or at least been a mixed success? I can't imagine that many in that council would look at some of the liturgical abuses that followed and say 'that's what we had in mind!'

      The focus on ecumenism was a risk, but I think a necessary one which recognised that you couldn't hold 20th century Christians responsible for the errors of their 16th century forebears. And without it, you wouldn't have Ordinariates and large numbers of Anglican convert clergy in English dioceses. It's certainly improved relations with the Orthodox, although Vatican I, not II, is the sticking point there.

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    4. Certainly. It established 'battle lines'. HJ would say that Vatican II (and Humanae Vitae) triggered a division in the Western Church that has been becoming wider over the last 20 years or so. There's been a failure of discipline in the Church. Add to this the sexual abuse scandal and reports of homosexual networks in the Church, and it's little wonder she has lost credibility.

      That said, we know that God brings good from evil and His Church is under His protection.

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    5. @Jack

      You've answered your own question. Vatican II was a pastoral response to the desertification of western culture. The desertification has grown exponentially, therefore the council was a failure, at least in its main goals of re-blooming the culture. That doesn't mean it was illegitimate or that nothing good will come from it. The Council of Florence was supposed to re-unify the Catholic and the Orthodox. It did, but only for a few years, then we broke apart again. However, ultimately, the eastern rites emerged. This wasn't the aim of the Council, but it was a result. Something similar may yet emerge from Vatican II. We don't know how God will bring this about, but we trust He will.

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    6. @lain

      Yes, the Pope can do this. However, I'm asking why he IS doing it. It's a pile-driver to crack a peanut. And since this is not a dogmatic issue, I'm at liberty to ask the question.

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  5. Prof Generaliter12 May 2023 at 14:55

    Reading all this with interest. But I ask myself the question, is the church failing in the West ( by this I mean all churches), because of the quality of language used in liturgy? Or the nature of the vestments? Or the language of the mass? Or whether the priest is facing forward or backwards? Whether they wear the Geneva gown or a suit or jeans and t-shirts?

    These things are all peripheral, and outside the church no one cares. What they care about is the lack of honesty, the hypocrisy, the child abuse, the cover ups, the lack of humility, the love of power and wealth. Not by all, but by too many.

    I wonder if the damage done by all this can ever be healed.

    I think that is where Francis and Welby and a whole plethora of Priests and ministers, pastors and vicars need to put their energies.

    Not SSM, or banning a form of Mass or a whole range of other issues which people aren't interested in or hold sceptical views about whether the person making the statement has the necessary understanding to be listened to. Like illegal immigration as a current example.

    So did Vatican2 fail. Considering the backdrop, I don't think it had a chance.1¹1

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    1. is the church failing in the West ( by this I mean all churches), because of the quality of language used in liturgy? Or the nature of the vestments? [etc.]

      A good question, to which the answer I think is yes and no. These things are symptomatic of a deeper malaise. Imagine going into a restaurant where nobody's swept up, the staff are scruffy and their uniforms dirty. The chef in the kitchen might be Michelin starred, but you wouldn't eat there because it looks like they don't care.

      The same is true with the Church. The Christian's first and only call is to holiness. If that calling is honoured, then we don't offer to God 'sacrifices that cost nothing'. If we truly believe that Christ is among us, we make the best effort we can, which means that our worship, language and lifestyle is beautiful whether we meet in a golden cathedral or a tin shack. Nobody turned up to the coronation to see the king in dirty jeans and a t-shirt; nobody should turn up to see the King in the spiritual equivalent of dirty jeans and a t-shirt.

      But we have largely abandoned the call to holiness which means, if we're honest, that many don't really believe that Christ is among us (or why would we act as we do?) and we sling on any old thing to meet him, materially and spiritually. Our worship becomes dull and sloppy, our sermons trite and boring, our engagement with culture irrelevant trend-chasing. And because we've lost the godliness, we fixate on the appearance of godliness and argue about externals, not realising that we're obsessing over the state of the shoe when the foot inside is gangrenous and about to drop off.

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    2. Prof Generaliter12 May 2023 at 21:32

      All true, but I don't believe many people get to the point of judging these things, they have long ago rejected the church for all the issues I've mentioned.

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    3. Yes, issues that occurred precisely because the pursuit of holiness was abandoned, which allowed abuse to flourish. Candidates for ordination have long been selected based on their academic credentials and connections more than their holiness of life, and their formation and training has emphasised worldly achievements over spiritual ones. A lot of frankly very weird people were (and are) ordained because the process is broken and favours those who know the right people, have the right bits of paper and toe the party line. Add to that bishops (not that this is limited to the hierarchical churches by any means) more concerned with protecting their own reputation and that of the institution than their pastoral duties to the victims, and you have a perfect storm.

      All the other things are just the visible, surface eruptions of the underlying disease. Even the abuse scandal is a symptom, albeit it a severe and possibly terminal one. In my opinion, the Western churches will never have the credibility to speak about public issues again in my lifetime - and the more they insist on doing so - such as Welby's whining about immigration - the more harm they do to themselves. The churches need to be retired, as misbehaving clerics are, to a life of prayer and penance for a good long while.

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    4. Prof Generaliter13 May 2023 at 06:30

      "In my opinion, the Western churches will never have the credibility to speak about public issues again in my lifetime"

      Agreed I make pretty much the same point.

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    5. Prof Generaliter13 May 2023 at 06:39

      Lain, your point about ordination candidate's is a good one. I know of families in the CofS who have provided Minister's for generations. it's possible that God has worked that way, but you can't help but suspect more than a bit of nepotism involved. I do wonder if they are subject to the same level of checks as candidates.

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  6. All good points, Clive. However, how a church worships is important as it is a reflection of belief. And the moral doctrines of a church are significant - stances on abortion, euthanasia, fornication, homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, and artificial contraception, matter.

    But you're right, the churches have lost moral credibility with the wider public. That said, the Holy Spirit will draw people to Christ regardless and one prays the churches will once again become beacons of light.

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    1. @ Clive

      Just came across this comment by Tim Staples:

      "You have to be very careful before you start saying, “Well, there’s scandals and stuff that have happened after this council, so obviously that’s a bad council.” That would eliminate just about every one of our ecumenical councils, because if you look at the history of our Catholic Church, you know, we have ebbs and flows, but we’re sinners. You know? We’re good at it. We don’t deny that there have been centuries in the Church that have been very very corrupt, even up to and including Popes that have been corrupt, and so forth, especially leading up, for example, to the Council of Trent, we have– I mean we could go to various centuries in history and there’s lots of corruption.

      But see, my brother, I would point out that that’s the reason why we have the Church. The grace of the Sacraments, Jesus gave it to us. Why? Because we’re in need. We’re not, as my good friend Jesse Romero often says, you know, the Church is not a museum of saints, it’s a hospital for sinners. So you don’t want to look at “Oh my goodness, look at this scandal,” because you might end up even rejecting our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. “Look at the scandal here! He ordained Judas!” Right? Jesus Himself ordained Judas, and look at the scandal here, and we could go down the list."

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    2. Prof Generaliter12 May 2023 at 16:30

      HJ, yes I hope the church again becomes a light for the west, but I suspect ( I won't pretend to having received direct communication, I leave that to the charismatics!) that the Lord is waiting for greater humility and real penance from the church and it's leaders,, otherwise he may feel that he is casting his seed on thorny ground

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    3. Remember this - HJ's first article here?

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    4. Yes. It's well argued BUT, people will respond that he helped pedophile priests avoid justice. He put the church before the victim
      Yes I know it's more complicated than that!

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    5. I'm not saying it applies in this case, but I think we have to be careful of putting too much weight on 'people will say...'.

      For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by all her children.

      The churches must get their houses in order, but an obsession with public opinion is how many of them got in a mess in the first place.

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    6. Beware of media spin .... and also those weaponising the scandal for their own purposes.

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    7. Prof Generaliter13 May 2023 at 06:21

      Yes people will use the scandal for their own purposes. However their shouldn't be a scandal in the first place.
      Even if people are using it, it is still the churches fault.

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    8. Prof Generaliter13 May 2023 at 06:26

      Lain was it an obsession with public opinion, or an obsession with wanting to protect the reputation of themselves, their colleagues and the institution?

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    9. @ Clive - it's the same thing.

      Abuse is a crime, but given human nature it's sadly statistically inevitable in an organisation of any size that works with the vulnerable. It happens in schools, churches, care homes, hospitals etc. The scandal is that it was covered up, which created an environment where it wasn't treated seriously, harm wasn't minimised and the door opened for reoffending.

      The bishops in question would have been fully aware of the damage it would do to the Church's reputation among the public if it came out that one of their priests had been arrested. In turn, that would damage their career. Think of what happens to private schools when a teacher is arrested: nobody wants to send their kids there and the headteacher gets sacked. So, we end up with 'let's keep this between us, shall we, old boy?'

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    10. Prof Generaliter13 May 2023 at 10:29

      I was thinking about a conversation I had a while ago with some friends and we got talking about the issue of safeguarding and it is amazing how many of us had been subjected to low level sexual abuse. Mainly sneaky ways of ogling nude boys by teachers. This was back in the 70's. This level of sexual assault was rife and looking back it's shocking how universal it was. Particularly amongst in our little group, those who had been to public schools. But there were church incidents as well.
      My point is society as a whole let generations of children down and partly what is happening here is society has decided to scapegoat the church.

      It makes so many people feel better about themselves and the fact they turned a blind eye in the past and pretended it wasn't happening.

      Fortunately I went to a comprehensive and didn't attend church at the time. But my sister was assaulted at about 7.

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  7. The article is of course a big fluffy straw person of dubious gender, wearing a blouse and pushing out its bosoms.

    Protestants of the 16th century could all see very clearly that the way of salvation being proposed by the Catholic church at the time was absolutely not in accord with scripture. That is the origin of their doctrine of sola fide.
    Once this is grasped, the rest of the argument collapses into 'Protestants don't all agree with each other, therefore none of them can be right'. But Catholics don't all agree with each other, do they?
    Satan is the author of confusion, with his "Did God really say..." sentence openers. Let us not fall for his devices, but instead look to the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

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    1. but instead look to the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

      This makes for a marvellous fridge magnet, and it works well in an echo chamber where everything one's peers agree on is 'obvious'. But should I look to the Holy Spirit who tells Christians that getting married to someone of their own sex is a wonderful blessing and abortion is fine, or the Holy Spirit who tells other Christians that those things will send me to hell? The Holy Spirit who says Jesus is fully God, or the Holy Spirit who says he's a subordinate creature? The Spirit who says that bank loans are usury and sinful, or the Spirit who adores capitalism? Because these aren't insignificant disagreements and it's entirely possible to argue a biblical case either way; endless amounts of ink have been spilled working out mutually contradictory answers to the 'plain' meaning of Scripture. Every heretic since the beginning of the Church has believed that they had Scripture on their side. 'I think the Bible says' ≠ 'the Holy Spirit is guiding me in all truth'.

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    2. Hello again, Chef! It’s been a long time!
      You make a good point here, and I would take it a step further. A lot of disagreements about “what the Bible says” have nothing to do with the Catholic-Protestant divide. With the proliferation of new Bible translations in the last hundred years or so, there has been an explosive growth in the number of new answers to old questions. To take one uncontroversial example, when Caiaphas asks Jesus, “Are you the Christos?”, is that Greek word more accurately rendered in English as “the Christ” or “the Messiah”? Some Bibles, both Catholic and Protestant, give one answer and some other Bibles, both Catholic and Protestant, give the other.

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    3. @Ray,
      That's an interesting comment, I didn't know that. Almost everybody reads the Bible in translation, and the old ones are not necessarily the best ones, so having a variety (of well-intentioned ones) doesn't really add to any problem.

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    4. @ Ray - that's a fairly simple one solved by understanding that they're Hebrew and Greek terms for the same thing - the anointed one. It might even be better to translate it that way, since by using Messiah or Christ we lose the vast wealth of meaning underlying what it means to be anointed in the Bible, and the significance of scared oils (and the fact that Christ isn't a surname - Jesus isn't 'Jesus Christ', he's Jesus, 'the Christ'). The early Greek Fathers, for example, enjoyed the wordplay in emphasising that the Greek word for mercy and the Greek word for olive oil are very similar, and used that to underline the fact that Christ's mercy isn't an act of letting one off legal charges, but of healing.

      More difficulty comes with passages such as Jesus' response at his trial when he's asked 'are you the Son of God?' The standard English translations has him reply something like 'you say that I am' or 'you have said it'. But NT Greek lacks punctuation and has no real way of indicating questions, so it could equally be 'do you say that I am?' Effectively it can be rendered 'I am' or 'am I?'

      I think it's very important to remember that very few modern Christians read the Scriptures; we read translations of the Scriptures containing other people's biases, textual selections and translation decisions. And some of the original meaning is inevitably lost in antiquity and translation, if not wilfully obscured.

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    5. Hi Lain,
      Have you Orthodoxists got round to celebrating Easter yet? Or have you been too busy agreeing with yourselves about how the Holy Spirit doesn't lead you into all truth, despite Jesus saying He would?

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    6. Speaking of strawmen... is that the best you can do? Do you consider the date of Easter a matter of salvation? When Protestants can work out whether same sex relations are a wonderful reflection of God's love, or a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance, we can talk about liturgical calendars.

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    7. I have no uncertainty about same sex relationships, any more than you will.

      The point is... Christians disagree. Some disagreements are big enough to warrant division. Paul describes the scriptures as "able to make you wise unto salvation." And it is sufficiently clear to me in scripture that salvation is by faith alone and is merely attested by works. So I will divide from a C15th church which is attempting to sell salvation for £whatever my life savings happen to be, plus monthly installments and an optional final payment of £everything else. APR 29.6%. Administration fee applies.
      My soul is mine. Its eternal destiny is my responsibility. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I will die without fear and in great anticipation of the resurrection.

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    8. But does objections to same sex relationships follow from your belief in "faith alone"?

      "With his doctrine of justification by faith alone, Martin Luther brought in a new kind of Christianity unlike anything that had gone before. Faith for a Catholic is an intellectual virtue based on belief in truth revealed by God and safeguarded by the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. For Luther it was instead an affective virtue, a sentiment of confidence in God’s favour. Religious feelings supplanted doctrinal orthodoxy and allowed emotional experiences to run riot at the expense of reason.

      "All man can do, ran the new teaching, is to trust in the mercy of God and believe with firm confidence that God has received him into his favour. As the Augsburg Confession, puts it, “Men are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith, when they believe that they are received into favour and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake.” This doctrine of justification by faith was the keystone of the whole Lutheran system and became the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation.

      "The most drastic consequences followed. An almost entirely self-centered individualism resulted, evangelical piety making personal conversion, guaranteed by feelings of assurance, the centre of its work. Popular Protestantism urges the individual “to believe in Christ and be saved.” The sense of community and of corporate religion inevitably declined. No intermediaries—priests, sacraments, or saints—were needed. The individual was prior to the very Church itself, which had to be defined in a totally different way: no longer as a visible institution founded by our Lord but as a vague, invisible aggregate of the “saved,” known only to God ...

      "The popular results of this teaching were tragic. Men declared that good works prescribed in order to please God were utterly meaningless. It was an easy step from that to conclude that the observance of the moral law itself was not really necessary, still less any ascetical self-discipline for the sake of an imaginary and impossible “spiritual progress.”

      "If there is but an exterior imputation of the righteousness of Christ, there can be no such thing as a truly interior sanctification of the soul, and the one supreme task is to reinforce one’s feelings of assurance in one’s own personal salvation. And such feelings had no necessary connection with obedience to the laws of God or with duties in regard to one’s fellow men. True, the conduct of the vast majority of Protestants is better than their creed, but it is with the creed itself that we are here concerned, and logically that creed leads to the undermining of Christian standards of conduct and still more of all efforts to attain to higher degrees of holiness in one’s personal spiritual life.

      "The idea of “full, free, and present salvation” for those “justified by faith”—as if Christ had done all and the Christian had to do nothing toward his own salvation—led to the dreadful doctrine that it is belief and not behavior that matters—a doctrine that is the very basis of hypocrisy. Christ warned his hearers against imitating the Pharisees, of whom he declared, “They preach but they do not practice” (Matt. 23:3). Quite evidently he thought that not only what we believe matters but also how we behave."

      (See The disasters of faith alone.)

      Delete
    9. I have no uncertainty about same sex relationships, any more than you will.

      Of course you don't because you follow, just as I do, the traditional teachings of the Church handed down from the Apostles. The difference is that your doctrine is nothing more than a theological sleight of hand, reading into Scripture the things you already know. Sola Scriptura is based on the fallacy that the ability to reverse engineer traditional teachings into proof texts means that the reverse is also true: that they can be discerned from Scripture by someone with no prior knowledge of the faith. Given the diversity of belief among 'Bible believing' Christians on this and many other salvific issues (nobody's going to hell over the date of Easter), this is manifestly untrue. The argument that the Greek condemns only specific manifestations of same sex relations, as it condemns specific types of heterosexual relationships, for example, is pretty strong once you jettison Tradition; and there are many modern day Arians for whom Scripture points to the Son being a subordinate creature. One finds in Scripture that which one sets out to find, and it seems 'obvious' when that is fruit of centuries of hard won Christian thinking.

      So I will divide from a C15th church... etc.

      I'm not sure if the rest of this paragraph is the result of too much time in the sun, but I'm also quite happy to divide from novel 16th century Teutonic theologies and stick with the Church that Christ founded.

      My soul is mine.

      This is the fundamental error of individualistic Reformed Christianity: I am my own Pope, my own authority, the captain of my own soul. This is unbiblical, of course, for the Lord says 'Behold, all souls are Mine' (Ez. 18:4), which is why he is entitled to demand it back (Lk. 12:20). I'd also prefer that my soul were Christ's rather than mine, I find that gives me much less anxiety.

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  8. Prof Generaliter13 May 2023 at 13:38

    And again! https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/13/archbishop-of-york-lord-sentamu-child-sex-abuse-review/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Did he leave the records in the basement again?

      Delete
    2. This is excellent news. It is vindication of Matt Ineson after so many years of the Church compounding the inestimable suffering of his abuse.
      Steven Croft, +Oxford, is also implicated and exposed.
      This would have been a happy day at Cranmer's blog.

      Delete
    3. And yet, the complaints made against Steven Croft under the CDM and two police investigations, failed to reach the threshold for upholding a complaint or bringing charges.

      We have his "mea culpa" in a letter he sent to 700 clergy in the Oxford diocese where he acknowledges:

      "I did not act sufficiently on the disclosures in 2012. There are several other observations, but the key takeaway for me is to be reminded (once again) that it is essential to act on every safeguarding disclosure, regardless of what else is going on ...
      It is never easy confronting one’s own mistakes and weaknesses. In 2016 I wrote that these events had made me determined and committed to listen well to survivors of abuse and to help the wider Church do so as well.”

      Delete
    4. @ Jack - I don't know why these apologies always make out that what one should do with a complaint of sexual abuse is a really complicated thing and anyone could have got it wrong. Just like mixing up a drinks order.

      Delete
    5. Where an allegation of abuse is made - as opposed to an expression of suspicion - it's not rocket science. After years of mismanagement, by 2012 the position was abundantly clear. Report all allegations to the investigative agencies, i.e. the police and social services. You have to be dumb or wilfully negligent not to understand this. And bishops have safeguarding officers to refer both allegations and suspicions to. Really, there is no reasonable excuse for this 'oversight'.

      It's unclear why Steven Croft has not been stood down by the Archbishop of Canterbury pending a re-examination of the failures identified in this report. The Bishop of Newcastle has removed John Sentamu from active ministry. Nothing from Justin Welby about suspending the Bishop of Oxford.

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    6. I would have thought that the honourable thing to do for someone who's admitted to making these kinds of 'mistakes' is to step down voluntarily. Especially in today's climate, a bishop who has compromised himself in the safeguarding realm cannot inspire confidence or be a symbol of unity for his diocese. On the bright side, that would also clear out most of the current hierarchy. It's a shame that Welby doesn't tackle the failings of living bishops with the same vigour as he does those of dead ones.

      Delete

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