Open Forum
Share your thoughts on any issue ...
Doctor's strike?
Ukrainian War?
Donald Trump?
The price of bread?
War Crimes and Genocide in Gaza?
Back in May 2024, the question was posed: Has Israel lost the war against Hamas? To recap: Israel’s original intention for counter attacking Hamas - its “jus ad bellum,” - i.e. the conditions under which states resort to war - was to recue the hostages and also to eliminate Hamas because of its ongoing threat to Israel. It was not revenge for the horrors of October 7 th , 2023, although that was the immediate cause. It was about the damage that Hamas could do in the future given it stated intent to annihilate Israel. Is Israel aiming for a realistic, achievable goals? Rescuing hostages is a clear and potentially achievable end. But is eliminating Hamas possible? How do you reduce civilian casualties in the face of Hamas tactics? Is her present strategy producing more chaos? Is her approach encouraging future terrorist attacks on her. Is there an alternative approach? As the war goes on and civilian deaths rise, questions increasingly surface about Israel’s conduct ...
Further to my recent post here on the subject of capital punishment
ReplyDeletehttps://dodothedude.blogspot.com/2023/06/the-church-state-and-death-penalty.html
Pope Francis has been addressing a nest of Jesuits in Portugal during "World Youth Day".
https://www.laciviltacattolica.com/the-water-has-been-agitated/#_ftnref4
Direct quote -- "...the death penalty is a sin." Did he mean it's a sin in current circumstances, or that it's a sin intrinsically and by its very nature? If he meant the former, he may or may not be right and no Catholic is obliged to cleave to his teaching on it. If he meant the latter, he is objectively wrong and I hereby call him out on it, as I was advised to do in confession by a priest to whom I had confided my doubts about this man. Bear in mind, I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with the death penalty, only if the magisterium of the Church allows it. If it does -- and yes, it does -- then do you agree that no pope has the right or the power to declare it a sin in and of itself?
"Did he mean it's a sin in current circumstances, or that it's a sin intrinsically and by its very nature?"
DeleteGiven the context of his comment it's clearly the former:
Let us get to specifics. Today it is a sin to possess atomic bombs; the death penalty is a sin. You cannot employ it, but it was not so before. As for slavery, some pontiffs before me tolerated it, but things are different today. So you change, you change, but with the criteria just mentioned. I like to use the “upward” image, that is, ut annis consolidetur, dilatetur tempore, sublimetur aetate. Always on this path, starting from the root with sap that flows up and up, and that is why change is necessary.
Then Jack agrees that no Catholic is obliged to accept this or adhere to his teaching on the matter?
DeleteThat was answered by Vatican II:
DeleteIn matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
(Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, #25)
And Canon Law:
Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.
The Church teaches non-definitively when she puts forward a teaching intended to be true and helpful, but not intended necessarily to be the final word on a subject. Such non-definitive teaching may be subject to growth, revision, or even correction in the future to some degree. But both forms of teaching, definitive and non-definitive, are to be adhered to.
This teaching was elaborated upon by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in a document written up as a commentary on a required profession of faith promulgated by Pope John Paul II (“Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio fidei“).
10. The third proposition of the Professio fidei states: “Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.” To this paragraph belong all those teachings on faith and morals – presented as true or at least as sure, even if they have not been defined with a solemn judgment or proposed as definitive by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Such teachings are, however, an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and intellect.18 They are set forth in order to arrive at a deeper understanding of revelation, or to recall the conformity of a teaching with the truths of faith, or lastly to warn against ideas incompatible with these truths or against dangerous opinions that can lead to error.19
A proposition contrary to these doctrines can be qualified as erroneous or, in the case of teachings of the prudential order, as rash or dangerous and therefore ‘tuto doceri non potest’.20 . . .
As examples of doctrines belonging to the third paragraph, one can point in general to teachings set forth by the authentic ordinary Magisterium in a non-definitive way, which require degrees of adherence differentiated according to the mind and the will manifested; this is shown especially by the nature of the documents, by the frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or by the tenor of the verbal expression.38
There are “degrees of adherence differentiated according to the mind and the will manifested.” The intention of the bishops or the Pope, as they manifest this intention in their teaching, determines the degree of adherence required in any particular case.
https://youtu.be/x6zpGQxV89g?si=9rLE6r7GbfWRFPAZ
DeleteThis is Gavin Ashenden's take.
The point the Pope was making is that some actions are now seen as sins that in earlier centuries were not. Times change. In Pictures from Italy Dickens describes a public execution by guillotine that he witnessed in Rome when Pope Gregory XVI was the ruling monarch of the Papal State.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, pronouncing a death sentence and executing a condemned criminal are things that can only be done by someone — a judge, an executioner — acting in the name of a state. It isn't the kind of sin that any individual can commit at any moment.
On a more cheerful note:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/255218/104-year-old-sister-jean-throws-first-pitch-at-chicago-cubs-game
Now Ukraine's Catholics are vilifying the Pope because he was incautious enough to comment favorably on Peter the Great in an online meeting with a Catholic youth group in St Petersburg.
ReplyDeletehttps://thetablet.org/after-russia-remarks-stir-outrage-vatican-says-pope-never-intended-to-glorify-imperialist-logic/
Yes, the Catholic Herald reported it too:
Deletehttps://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2023/08/church-and-state-in-ukraine-blast-pope-for-praising-great-mother-russia
But, it seems to have pleased the Russians:
https://catholicherald.co.uk/moscow-thanks-pope-for-balanced-approach-to-war-in-ukraine/
What about Cardinal Zuppi, who is supposed to be talking with both Russia and Ukraine to seek a peace agreement? Will the Pope's undiplomatic remarks about Russian history make his job easier or harder?
DeleteOne doubts either side wants a settlement.
DeleteThe much heralded Ukrainian breakthrough to the shore of the Sea of Azov, somewhere near Mariupol, seems to have run out of steam. The maps we see in the papers still show the front line moving gradually eastward, but very, very slowly. Is there any kind of decisive action in view, for either side?
DeletePäivi Räsänen, a member of the Finnish parliament for nearly thirty years and a former minister, is on trial a second time for “hate speech,” because she quoted the New Testament in support of her belief that marriage is between one man and one woman.
ReplyDeletehttps://catholicherald.co.uk/finnish-politician-on-trial-for-hate-speech-for-defending-traditional-marriage/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A4ivi_R%C3%A4s%C3%A4nen
People seem to have abandoned the Crannog for now, Ray!
DeleteIs there any good news out there?
The Pope has landed in Mongolia. Does that count as good news?
DeleteOnly if he stays there!
DeleteWorking on something now, if Jack is interested...
DeleteOn holiday 😎 but still reading posts
ReplyDeleteHope you are enjoying your holiday. Meanwhile, YT has recommended me Elthin - medieval music ensemble from Czechia. Most of the songs in this list are in either Czech or French from around the 14th Century.
Delete"McCarrick was the quintessential ‘Vatican II’ priest."
ReplyDeleteFormer Cardinal Ted McCarrick, when he was a bishop, had a practice of taking young seminarians for "retreats" at his beach house (yes, I know, a bishop with a beach house...) He generally took six young men on these retreats. The house had six bedrooms, so, at the end of the day it was a case of, "oh, sorry guys, somebody's going to have to bunk in with Uncle Ted." This was the least of his sins.
I personally find him a fascinating figure because he is the walking, talking personification of the Catholic Church which came out of Vatican II -- much more so than Bergoglio -- because he is the still living representation of the unregenerate evil that Pope Pius X detected decades before the council and which only broke the surface in the 1960s. It may sound odd, but I also feel a little sorry for him. His father died of TB when he was only three years old, and his mother had to make ends meet by working in a factory. It wasn't a great start in life, but he did seem to have help, and this is the bit that really fascinates me.
He was accepted into not one, but TWO Jesuit high schools in his youth. He was expelled from the first -- Xavier High School -- for missing class, but afterwards, a mysterious sponsor, patron or whatever you like to term him, managed to get him into the even more prestigious Fordham Preparatory School. This is like a kid from a sink estate in Wolverhampton getting into Harrow, being kicked out, then being accepted By Eton. (For non-Catholics, the Jesuits don't do any favours in their schools; with the Order, money talks and BS walks.) There are two aspects here which really interest me: one is that he doesn't appear to have won any scholarships; the "sponsor" arranged it all for him. The second is that nobody, to this day appears to know, or at least is refusing to say, who the sponsor was.
One name continuously pops up in this regard, a very powerful -- and now deceased -- prelate whom I will not name because I don't know a) if he actually WAS the sponsor, and b) if he was the sponsor, did he extract a price for his services. In the absence of proof, he is entitled not to be slandered. This individual has had a whirlpool of accusations swirling around him, both in life and death, regarding his nature and his sexuality. If he DID extract a price, a lot of what McCarrick did later kind of makes sense; abusers tend to have themselves been abused. Whatever the truth, I'm not one of those who hold that everything went pear shaped with Vatican II -- it was in the offing long before that, maybe even before the time of Pius X. In any event, McCarrick has beaten the system. On this side of eternity, anyway.
https://onepeterfive.com/mccarricks-escape-allegory/
The above is from me, by the way.
DeleteInteresting background information.
DeleteGod alone knows how and why sin enters the heart and corrupts our will. Whatever thesis we offer, we know we always have some human freedom and access to God's grace. McCarrick, and those like him, have done great harm to the Christian cause and the Catholic Church. They need our prayers; as do their victims.
Personally, HJ doesn't believe Vatican II is the issue.
I don't believe Vatican II is the issue either, only what came out FROM Vatican II and what claims to be acting "in the spirit of Vatican II." The evil was moving below the surface long before the council was called.
DeleteThen we agree ...
DeleteTsk....Jack..You do know I hope that smart arsed remarks like relocating the Pope to Mongolia can result in your name being entered into the bad book which is kept in the Vatican Although I know you were joking so I suppose it depends on who is on book duty at the time.
ReplyDeleteGood news!...It is Spring in Oz...the ripe juicy mangoes are now on sale in the supermarkets...we just had daffodil day (with all the daffodils purchased donations go the Cancer Council of Australia) so my place looks lovely filled with vases of daffodils...the days are getting longer....we are blessed with good weather, good produce, white sandy beaches and wonderful wildlife. I love my country and am pleased we have a small population and are bit isolated from the rest of the world I feel for the suffering Ukrainians and all the troubles visited upon so many of the other older countries. Of course this is not going to last in Oz but for my life time it might (just) I hope.
As for the Pope. I think he is a simple man and being a Pope is an onerous task. He is old and not very well. His advisory team is not up to scratch. The position requires an intellectual/cat lover someone more like Pope Benedict. I think Pope Francis means well .He should spend more time in prayer and feeding the white doves in the Vatican garden. Maybe get a cat or even a dog.The Cardinals who voted for him must have had a reason for doing so. I wonder what that could have been.
BELL...That is interesting info about Mc Carrick.. There are bad eggs in the Church basket...it is important that there are many more good ones than bad. All men are equal in the eyes of the Lord. so slavery has and will always be a sin....no matter how anyone tries to dress it up and no matter who has done it,approved it in the past and is still doing it At some point they will pay the price..... Simple !
The best thing about being Catholic is understanding and calling a spade is a spade...CRESSIDA.
"The best thing about being Catholic is understanding and calling a spade is a spade"
DeleteJust like being a Yorkshire women then?!!!
Cressie, good to hear from you. We're just entering autumn, so enjoy you're spring and summer.
DeleteJack's identity remains hidden and his whereabouts are undetectable by the Vatican! You're right about Pope Francis' advisers - but he chose them and removed others. October will be a critical month in the life of the Church when the first session of the Synod meets.
I had never heard of HAAC or aerated concrete until this schools business blew up a few days ago. Who invented it? Where and when did it come into widespread use? Why did it take so long for the weakness to be discovered?
ReplyDeleteCould some kind soul kindly point me to an online source that explains it all in terms that a non-technical non-scientist can easily understand? Thanks!
Isn't it RAAC?
DeleteThank you, Jack. The system doesn’t allow me to go back and edit it. Can you do that for me, or is it out of reach for you too?
DeleteUnfortunately, HJ is unable tom edit posts. His powers are very limited!
DeleteOkay Jack, thanks anyway!
Delete