Open Forum - Anyone Out There?
This little blog seems to have run out of visitors!
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Has Israel lost the war against Hamas?
In the early hours of Oct. 7 th , 2023, Hamas launched a barrage of 3,000 missiles from the Gaza Strip against the State of Israel, combined with ground attacks upon civilians and soldiers. The resulting one-day death toll of 1,200 people in Israel represented the largest Jewish loss of life since the Holocaust. In addition to murdering civilians and raping women, Hamas seized 253 hostages, Global reaction was swift and widespread, with leaders of democratic nations simultaneously condemning Hamas while asserting Israel’s right to defend itself. Today, seven months later, the Palestinian death toll stands at 34,500 as Israel continues its offensive on Gaza. A crippling blockade is leaving its population on the verge of starvation and plague. Vast swathes of Gaza lie in ruin, pushing 85% of the enclave’s population into internal displacement with a lack of shelter, food, clean water, and medicine. At least 153 hostages remain in the hands of Hamas. That narrative has now shifte
ReplyDeleteHello Jack. May I start with a Biblical question? It’s about the different churches and their differing interpretations of certain OT passages. I know — or at least I have a pretty fair idea — of Catholic teaching on the subject. I’d like to hear, if possible, from a range of non-Catholics who may have different answers from one another.
My question can be expressed very simply. How many OT covenants are there?
From time to time we come across this terminology, stating a specific number of OT covenants, that I have never fully understood. There are some online sources, for example, that clearly state there are four covenants, while other sources give different numbers. The maximum seems to be six, as follows:
• Adamic (Gen 3:14-19)
• Noahic (Gen 9:9)
• Abrahamic (Gen 17:7)
• Mosaic aka Sinaitic (Ex 24:8)
• Aaronic (Num 25:13)
• Davidic (2 Sam 3:18)
What I would like to find is a complete list of all the OT covenants as defined in the theology of whichever church proclaims the importance of distinguishing clearly between one covenant and another. I have the impression that Catholic theology tends to see those distinctions as secondary, preferring to bundle them all together under the single designation “Old Covenant”.
I have a serious doubt about the term “Aaronic Covenant”, referring to the institution of an ordained priesthood. This term may possibly be in Jewish use only, not shared by any Christian church. But I’m not sure about that.
Hi Ray,
DeleteIt's a fascinating question, one that I've never encountered before, I don't think I've ever heard preaching on the subject.
Non-Catholics may indeed have different answers from one another, but then, I'm guessing, so might Catholic theologians have had over the years.
Ray -- the Mosaic Covenant was the only conditional covenant, and it's my understanding of Catholicism that it ended with the last breath on the cross. The Church became the new Israel at that moment. Does that constitute a new covenant or a transfer of the old? Look up "supersessionism." The Mosaic Covenant causes a great deal of confusion in the minds, particularly, of fundamentalist Christians and often leads to actual or effective Dual Covenantism if the supersessionist position is not kept in mind.
DeleteGadjo -- on the subject of confusion, yes, you're correct, Catholic theologians -- some of them, anyway -- have become vague on the issue of the covenants, most specifically, the Mosaic Covenant. Thus we had the spectacle of Bishop Barron, an otherwise sound and accessible teacher of Catholicism, telling Jewish journalist Ben Shapiro that Christianity was the "privileged route" to salvation. Which, of course, allows the inference that there's another, albeit lesser, route. No Catholic bishop would have given a response like that even thirty years ago, and in this we have, in a nutshell, the real problem Catholicism is facing today. It's not Islam, it's not wokism, it's not the Jews or anybody else, it's it's own failure of nerve. It's stopped believing that if you build it, they will come. Whether this weakening is the result of the Jesuits, of Teilhard de Chardin, of Vatican II, liberation theology or all of the above, it's a sickness at the heart of the Church.
Thank you, @Bell, but that doesn’t really answer my question. I wasn’t proposing to start a debate about which covenants are perpetual and which are only provisional. I’m not at this moment concerned, either, with what the Catholic Church says about it. I’m just hoping to find out what the arguments are, exactly, that are put forward by those churches that do profess a belief in multiple OT covenants. I’m really only looking for factual information about certain non-Catholic theologies, that’s all.
Delete@Bell,
DeleteI've always rather liked Bishop Barron and am sorry if he is getting theologically mixed up.
"If you build it, they will come" - that's very well put, and I think true.
@Ray,
Delete"I’m really only looking for factual information about certain non-Catholic theologies"
Don't worry, I understand - sorry I couldn't be of more help! I would also be interested to find out.
@Bell, since you have raised the question of Dual Covenantism versus the supersessionist position, did God tell the Israelites that he was giving them an everlasting covenant? I’m not sure whether the correct answer is Yes or No, but it has to be either one or the other, and in either case it seems to lead to difficulties.
DeleteThe next British general election will be a fascinating and, I think, possibly a momentous one. I suspect the psephologists can be ignored this time out. The UK electoral system doesn't do gradual. When it changes tack, somebody's going under the bus and they aren't coming back. The classic guillotining was the collapse of the Liberal Party after the First World War, but a more recent example was Labour in Scotland going from full spectrum dominance to one seat in Edinburgh after the independence referendum. That one isn't thought of much in England because, despite the claptrap about the importance of Scotland, the Labour Party has never needed Scottish seats to form a government, so nobody noticed. However, the point is still valid -- in the UK, when you're out, you'll think you were hit by a train.
ReplyDeleteWith this in mind, the consensus seems to be that it's the Tories who are putting their affairs in order while Labour is bullish. I'm not convinced this is justified. Certainly, the Tories are fracturing, but I'm not so sure the rather contemptuous Labour assumption that "the peasants have nowhere else to go" is accurate. They didn't have anywhere else to go in Scotland, but they didn't go back to Labour, did they? There is much speculation that Reform will break through in this election, as Labour did in 1918. Possibly, but the fracturing of the Tories will make that breakthrough -- if it happens -- interesting because I think it quite possible we'll see one or more of those Tory fractions joining forces with Reform to create, if not a new party, at least a genuine small-c conservative grouping, perhaps big enough to form a government. Nothing comparable happened in 1918.
Of course, all of this is predicated on there BEING such a breakthrough by Reform. How likely is that? I don't know. What I'm speculating about here is based on the manner of argument of the substantial EU Remainer quotient of the British electorate and their attitude to Brexit and, more specifically, to Brexiteers. Simply put, they're deranged about it. Understand something -- I'm not saying that decision was right or wrong. It's possible to rationally argue it either way, but the problem is that the Remainers are not arguing on the same ground as the Brexiteers. Their thinking is entirely based on the idea that man actually DOES live by bread alone, and in consequence, they're screaming until they're red in the face about the price of this and the cost of that, all as a result of Brexit. And maybe it IS as a result of Brexit, but because the Brexiteers are closer to the Christian worldview -- in that man doesn't live by bread alone -- prices are not necessarily their primary concern; they don't like being bought and sold for EU gold, and they find themselves frustrated at every turn by a public square completely occupied by Remainers whom they perceive as being comfortable with what they would regard as a form of prostitution. There is simply no attempt at understanding, and the result of that may well be an attitude at the polls which says, "sod it, blow it all up and let God sort it out."
Interesting times.
Hey, the posting problem seems to have sorted itself out. Was anyone else having trouble posting?
Delete@Bell,
DeleteSpeaking as a long-term ex-pat, the state of British politics looks pretty parlous right now. The Conservative Party appears to no longer be conservative, not even in the limited sense that made much of the 'Red Wall' vote for Boris... the sacking of Braverman for saying what most people think about immigration probably did for that. I don't see how Reform can get a hold in the first-past-the-post system ... after all, UKIP couldn't translate support into seats. Why principled Tories like Rees-Mogg didn't leave for Reform or Reclaim (or at least make more of a fuss) when Andrew Bridgen was expelled for the most pathetic of non-reasons is beyond me ... I expected more from the Cornerstone Group chaps, to be honest. I suspect that 'low turnout may be the winner at the election, and that globalism will see its opportunity.
You are correct, for the most part. I'm saying that the British first-past-the-post system does indeed create a status which keeps two parties alternating indefinitely and makes it nearly impossible for any other to break through. NEARLY, but not completely. What is necessary is a massive social convulsion such as happened after the First World War. That kind of thing is a rare visitor, and I'm not at all convinced that it's about to happen now, but the point is that it CAN happen, and when it does, all bets are off and all "accepted wisdom" is straight out the window. Whether or not it's about to happen, your guess is as good as mine, but I think there may be something in the wind. Only time will tell.
DeleteBy the way, Gadjo, how come Brits abroad are "ex-pats" while everybody else is an immigrant?🤣
Delete@Belk
DeleteOh, I guess Britain had first-past-the-post after WWI when Labour became a force ... I hadn't thought about that. I believe that we are certainly ready for that kind of 'rare visitor event' right now, but people I speak to back in the Muvver Country seem a little apathetic, to be honest.
I am an immigrant! (also now a dual citizen, btw). And I married a local, pay taxes, read the national poetry, etc. How do Irish people living in Britain refer to themselves (genuine question)?
"Bell", sorry.
DeleteTrying rhis out on
ReplyDeleteThat was me logging in successfully on my tablet. However, typing on one of those I find difficult, especially since there are no cursor arrows to go back and rectify typos.
DeleteNow I am at my PC keyboard, but unable to log in.
Neanderthal Èireannach
Mr & Mrs Sussex are in the news again, this time because of their daughter’s name. As soon as she’s old enough I expect she’ll change it.
ReplyDeleteI had a thought recently: isn’t there are particular bunch to whom our powers that be cave in like Harry before Meghan?
DeleteNeanderthal Èireannach
Ahoy there castaways!
ReplyDeleteAlthough I’ve occasionally looked in to see what you are getting up to, I’ve so far resisted the urge to post a comment, perhaps because I appreciate how much more time there seems to be in the day since the cessation of the Cranmer blog, on which I spent more time than I ought, when I should have been working.
Anyway, I thought that you papists would be pleased to know that this difficult old prod has recently been very blessed by listening to Patricia Janečková, a Slovak soprano and a Catholic, who died of cancer on 1 October last year at the age of only 25.
She had started singing as a child, winning a major talent competition at the age of 12 and by the age of 18 was a mature soprano. Although she sang in a wide variety of genres, she was particularly noted for her performances of eighteenth century sacred music, usually accompanied by period ensembles.
The first piece which made a profound impression on me (and, it seems, many others) was her performance of Mozart’s Laudate Dominum at the age of 19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljvTwbxrylc&list=PLRkXgEtCqIyXdRs4pixfReBb0Xosd4bIK&index=79
Her collaboration with the excellent Collegium Marianum resulted in more recent gems such as this performance of Vivaldi’s Salve Regina: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1MgtTI8mGM&list=PLRkXgEtCqIyXdRs4pixfReBb0Xosd4bIK&index=133
Or this performance (a contemporary world premiere) of Vivaldi’s recently rediscovered Eja voce sonora laeti cantate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEx3Utwc1f0&list=PLRkXgEtCqIyXdRs4pixfReBb0Xosd4bIK&index=134
Although performing mainly in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Patricia had (and still has) a quarter of a million subscribers to her YouTube channel from all over the world. From their comments it is evident that one of Patricia’s many talents was to encourage people to try and then to appreciate styles of music that they previously thought were not for them, such as opera, even if they had initially been attracted by her performance of film or more popular music. Many testify to the powerful emotional and spiritual effect on them of her performances, particularly at times of personal difficulty or during lockdown.
Patricia was set to enter the world of international performance, when the Covid ‘pandemic’ drastically curtailed the opportunities for public performance, and then the diagnosis of her cancer in February 2022 put a complete stop to her career. She is reported to have planned her funeral in detail, and that presumably included the choice of text that appeared below her portrait in the church: ‘I will sing to thee, my God, before the angels’ (Psalm 138). I believe that she is now doing exactly that.
Welcome ashore, Maalaistollo.
ReplyDeleteWhat a wonderful voice! May Patricia rest in peace.
Thanks for the welcome!
DeleteI suspect that heaven is a pretty active place, so not all rest, as there’s a lot of singing to be done….
The comments beneath Patricia’s YouTube videos often venture into theological considerations, but generally only of the most shallow kind. Thus, before her illness struck, there would be comments from those who had just discovered her such as ‘So, there is a God!’ and, predictably, after her death, comments to the effect that there cannot be a God, otherwise she would not have been taken so young.
She continues to elicit the greatest admiration (admittedly most of it well-deserved) from her followers and I wonder if she will eventually become the focus of a cult. Already some commenters are asking her to pray for them in heaven, as if she periodically dips out of the singing to check on her YouTube comments.
There’s a very touching tribute to her, prepared on the day of her funeral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icBJoBkvg70&list=PLRkXgEtCqIyXdRs4pixfReBb0Xosd4bIK&index=144
For those wishing to see and hear more of her, one admirer has helpfully compiled a chronological playlist of over 150 videos, charting her entire career, from child prodigy to her funeral: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRkXgEtCqIyXdRs4pixfReBb0Xosd4bIK
However, I must warn that Patricia can be addictive….